Rapid fire

If you fire as fast as possable until the threat is over, how do you know when the threat is over?

Basically there are a lot of variables.

How many rounds does it take to empty the magazine? For a glock 36 it takes not so many rounds. For a glock 17 it takes a lot more, almost 3 times as many as the glock 36.

Part of the pause in my thinking is to see if the threat has friends or not. I don't want to fire until empty and get charged while reloading.

And to some extent I feel we can think while shooting. It is just that for me the first 3 or 4 rounds are what are the most important. That gun just came out of the holster and the threat is real so I am going to put 3 or 4 rounds into it and start moving away from the threat while hoping to find some cover.

My instructor said once he decides to draw his gun he is going to fire one round just because it is so automatic to him. This is with him drawing because he feels threatened.

Overall I just look at what we have for the jury of today and wonder about emptying a mag into a threat. I wonder about the threat being #1 with others in waiting so I am not sure I want to just automatically shoot until empty.

We all have to decide for ourselves what we will do.

One thing I think about when on the sidewalk in a crowd is stray rounds.

At home I don't worry as much about stray rounds since I am in a brick building and the walls can stop most handgun rounds. The windows can't, but it is better than a crowded sidewalk where any misses are likely to hit innocent people.

I fully agree with being judged by 12 rather than carried by 6, but in today's world I want to try and cover as many angles as possable.

So for me 3 or 4 rounds while getting the gun out of the holster and up to full extension works for me, the class I took was more a point shooting class than the regular class where you fire once your sights are lined up.

Once that is done I need to assess all information available and make decisions from there.
 
If you fire as fast as possable until the threat is over, how do you know when the threat is over?
Click to expand...
It will be obvious.

How many rounds does it take to empty the magazine? For a glock 36 it takes not so many rounds. For a glock 17 it takes a lot more, almost 3 times as many as the glock 36.
Click to expand...
Immaterial, no one said empty the magazine. You should fire and continue to fire until the threat is removed. If it take one round, great. If it take 15, great.

Part of the pause in my thinking is to see if the threat has friends or not.
Click to expand...
Again sort of immaterial, you can't remove two threats without removing one first. Take out the first threat, then check for the second. Disengaging to assess the situation or effect of your shots before the first threat is removed is a fatal tactic.

My instructor said once he decides to draw his gun he is going to fire one round just because it is so automatic to him. This is with him drawing because he feels threatened.
Click to expand...

WOW! You may want to find a different instructor. So, if he decides to draw and the BG drops his weapon, he is going to fire a round anyway because it is automatic? Programming yourself to fire automatically whenever you draw is not a good idea. Waiting to draw until you have decided to shoot is also not a good idea. Ideally, you want to draw your weapon well before you take the shot. You can't always do that, but you should whenever possible. When you percieve a threat it doesn't hurt to put your hand on your weapon and when you have identified a threat, draw. This reduces the amount of time you need to react. From the holster, I can put 6 rounds on target in about 1.6 to 1.8 seconds. With the gun at a ready position, the time is cut in half. In a defensive situation, time is not on your side. You want to remove the threat in the fastest way possible. Also, many times just the presence of a weapon defuses the situation.

I can't stress enough to not pre-program yourself to fire x number of rounds or to fire x rounds and assess. That will get you killed. Don't think, see! What you see will tell you what to do. If you fire 5 rounds and you see the guy fall to the ground dropping his weapon, don't fire number 6. Do a quick situationals scan (360 if necessary) with the gun at full extension. If there are additional threats, address them. If not, keep the BG covered, reload and wait. Do additional scans every 10 - 15 seconds or so. If you see the BG drop his weapon before you fire your first shot, don't fire it.
 
I don't think shooting and assessing are mutually exclusive. Brian Enos stresses seeing quite a bit in "Practical Shooting." Seeing what you need to see is a big part of what he writes about. Shoot until the target is down. If you can't see something like that while shooting fast, practice. Shooting fast doesn't mean yanking the trigger as quickly as possible. You can shoot quick, accurately, and with awareness. The obstacle here is that Unconcious Competence, as Doctor Piazza would say, is required.
 
I don't think shooting and assessing are mutually exclusive.
Click to expand...
In fact they are mutually inclusive. What you need to not do is conscioulsy try to figure out what is happening. What you see dictates what you should do.
 
Double tap?

Practise a double tap to get two shots downrange asap.....anyone who will come after you after being shot two times is clearly planing on taking you out to the death, if he can moove a pinky he can turn your face inside out.....watch him and take him out if neccesary, this mand life is clearly not as valuable as anone elses!;)
 
Lurper, Can you give us a training regimen that aids in maintaining situational awareness after eliminating the initial threat?

I fire whatever I decide to shoot at the target then bring my pistol back to my chest and let my wrists relax downward and slightly to the side while scanning left and right. What do you do.
 
My defensive practice, is to shoot 3 times as fast as I can to the center of
mass, using paper human target. I'll do this sequence about 20-30 times.

excellence. This should be the standard practice for home defense courses.
 
What I recommend is to keep the gun at full extension (when the environment allows) and do a 360 degree arc. Then return to the initial threat. Depending on how many rounds you have fired, reload and return to full extension. After that, seek a better position if possible keep the initial threat covered and scan the area just moving your head until the cavalry arrives. I don't advocate lowering the pistol, unloading, setting it down or anything else. Keep the threat covered until the police arrive.
 
Variants

Just my views, some of which have already been covered....

Your mechanism for incapacitating the adversary will either be via a (probably lucky) disrupted CNS or by blood loss. Since handguns are relatively poor stoppers and blood loss will take a while to incapacitate the attacker, continue to shoot until the threat has been observably removed.

Shoot as fast as you can reliably make good hits. Do not shoot faster.

Do not count on 1 round stopping the attacker.

Do not count on 2-3 rounds stopping the attacker.

Be prepared for attackers with body armor. This may mean placing shots into the pelvis. Some trainers advise placing the first shot into the pelvic region (I lean towards this philosophy myself).

Also, after the threat has been removed to the best of your ability to ascertain, you could keep your weapon in a ready position, or alternatively, re-holster it but keep your hand on it. The idea here is to keep yourself from getting blown away by responding officers.
 
I suppose a lot of this comes down to what comes across in typed words vs. an actual in person discussion with someone.

For now I am not going to worry about correcting any points since I am not sure I will correct them.
 
My thoughts on my method are based on the "Fight or Flight" reaction.
I expect I would do both.

I never thought of any 360 turn to look around.
I would be more afraid of being hit while I was looking around. (Second shooter?)

Just take cover.
Concentrate fire on one BG and get where its hard to be seen.
Heck, laying down in a gutter is better than remaining vertical on a vacant street.

If I find myself in a firefight, (more than one BG) the only thing that I would find difficult is being sure to get the first guy down.
I already know I'm gonna run like a pansie and try to return fire. LOL

One a side note, if you are worried about neighbors/bystanders, reload or buy Ballistic tipped ammo for your handgun.
They loose more energy on sheet-rock than any other type of projectile.
Yes there will be 'pepper' on the other side but tiny pieces of flack hold less energy than large pieces or full size bullets.
I would rather feel bad that my neighbor had bandages, than see my neighbor have stitches or a coffin.
Another advantage is that some can penetrate body armor. Not always. But they can.
 
Yith,
Heck, laying down in a gutter is better than remaining vertical on a vacant street.
Click to expand...

Understand that bullets flatten out on hard surfaces so all rounds that would have missed low and short are going to be eaten if you lay down on concrete.
 
Wow some of these responces... I've had a good laugh at most of them and then I remembered the forum I'm in.:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Firing multiple rounds.. let see hmm.. yeah shot till the BG is no longer a threat. If your still shooting a corpse on the ground flopping around after each impact, yeah, you might have some trouble with the law.

Common sense applies. Duh.
 
Slidelock seems like a good time to stop and assess to me. Honestly, if it's not blatantly obvious the fight is over before my gun is empty, why on earth would I want to lay off the trigger to have a better look??

Posssibly I'd shoot the bad guy an extra shot or three by the time my brain registers he's not a threat and tells my finger to stop shooting, but I don't think that would overly complicate my case to unreasonable degree.
 
If your still shooting a corpse on the ground flopping around after each impact, yeah, you might have some trouble with the law
Click to expand...

Never saw a corpse as a deadly threat.......oh wait dawn of the dead LOL. As Lurper said you will know. My friend shot a robber and instantly after the first shot the robber dropped the gun and ran. He knew instantly and before he could squeeze of the next shot. He doesn't know how he had time to know but he knew. Perhaps your brain processes things faster than normal under stress like that who knows.
 
when would R.F. be required?
remember KORESH and the video?
now im not recommending opening fire on atf, but say youre in a shtf scenario, like in NEW ORLEANS, where there was roving gangs of maggots going into folks homes.
shoot right thru the walls, ceilings, floors, etc.
if several guys just breached your home, just lay a string of fire through the walls.
then they'll know they picked the wrong house:cool:
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top