Picked up the Delta today
Sorry it took so long but I just picked it up from H&H this afternoon. The smith said it looked good and there was no damage other than the magazine. He did a full take down and cleaning. Here are some pics and the original emails from Buffalo Bore for your entertainment.
Original email sent to Buffalo Bore
Sent: Saturday, December 21, 2013 8:06 PM
To:
sales@buffalobore.com
Subject: New Contact Request: Casing failure
Subject: Casing failure
Message: I bought 2 boxes of your 10mm ammo. On the 4the shot from my Colt
Delta Elite your round had a catastrophic failure and blew out the side of
the round destroying my magazine and injuring my 16 year old son. I have
never been as disappointed with a product as I am with yours. I have
pictures and the failed round casing if you are interested.
Chris
Email 2 response from Buffalo Bore
On Sun, Dec 22, 2013 at 10:43 AM, Tim wrote:
Chris,
We literally sell tons of that ammo and are not having the problem you've
had in millions of rounds sold to the public. So while you may be
Disappointed in the product, let's do some research to determine why this
happened and then you will know for certain where to place your
disappointment, instead of doing it by reflex, OK? I need you to
accurately/truthfully answer some questions.
1. You failed to state which item # you were firing, which item # was it, as
we make several 10MM loads.
2. Does you pistol have the factory barrel in it or has an aftermarket
barrel been installed?
3. Did you buy the pistol new?
4. If you know the history of this pistol (i.e. you bought it new) has a
gunsmith done a "ramp/throating" job on it to facilitate smooth/reliable
cycling?
5. Exactly what ammo did you fire just prior to firing ours?
There are a number of factors that can cause a casing web failure, only a
couple of which would be attributed to the ammo, but several that can be
attributed to the firing mechanism (gun) and several that can be attributed
to a combination of factors, not just one factor and when you use full
power/high performance ammo such as ours, those factors become much more
critical, which is why most ammo companies water the ammo down far below the
levels it was designed to perform at, but they feel they have to idiot proof
the ammo against ANY type of mistake the shooter or gun manufacturer or gun
smith may make. We don't water our 10MM loads down to make up for the lack
of knowledge or understanding of gun manufacturers, gunsmiths or shooters.
If something is out of spec with that pistol, what happened to you is very
possible. We make sooooo much 10MM ammo and have for such a long time, that
we know our product very well, so you can help by answering the above
questions as a place to start. Thanks.
Tim
From: Chris
Sent: Sunday, December 22, 2013 10:35 AM
To: Tim
Subject: Re: New Contact Request: Casing failure
Tim,
The item number on the box is 21B/20 180 gr JHC 1350 fps The Sticker on the box says BBAC-21B/20
The pistol has never had any work done on it and is still in the factory configuration.
I bought the pistol new in the box from a dealer here in Oklahoma City
I fired 2 rounds of your 21C/20 220 gr Hard cast rounds and one round of your 21B/20 . I had alternating rounds of your ammo in the magazine
Prior to your ammo I fired roughly 2 boxes of Remington UMC 180 gr FMJ about 3 months ago.
I purchased this at ######## in Oklahoma city.
Although I appreciate your condescending tone I am including a picture of the round and would like for you to explain how my weapon and or "lack of knowledge or understanding" would be responsible for a casing breach like this. My son is fine and I can buy a new magazine. I was just informing you of the problem. I still have 2 boxes of your ammo that I will throw away and consider as a lesson learned.
Chris
From Buffalo Bore
Chris,
Yes I’d be happy to explain how a new pistol can cause or allow a case web failure. At the risk of sounding condescending, please understand I do this for a living, currently own around 400 firearms that I test, test, test,. I’m deep into this industry. I’ve bought new Colts that would not fire straight from the box and have seen manufacturing and design flaws in EVERY make of firearm that is mass produced. I refuse to assume anything, such as it is the guns fault or the ammo’s fault you experienced a case web failure. In your case I suspect (I don’t know or assume, I suspect) that your new Delta Elite has a very generous area machined away in the chamber right above the feed ramp, to facilitate feeding. If this area is too large, the casing will not have enough support and will let go. With lower pressure ammo, you won’t experience a case failure, but with high pressure ammo, it is more likely. You can easily remove your barrel and drop a live round in it and see how much casing is unsupported. If you have a space much more than about .200-.300 inch long, that is unsupported, you've likely found the culprit. In the last year, I've been informed of two or three case web failures in the New Delta Elite pistols and those failures were not with BB ammo. My Delta Elite was made in 1985 and is executed wonderfully.
While less likely, it is very possible that there could be an internal inclusion in the brass case around the web area. This would be invisible from outside the case, so it would go unnoticed, till it was fired.
There are a number of other possibilities. One thing I've learned over millions of rounds placed into the public’s hands, shot through countless firearms makes and designs, is to never assume anything, Chris. Firearms have a number of moving parts that have to be held to tight tolerances and all have to work together in a millisecond. On the other hand, ammo is fixed, made of only four components with no moving parts unless fired. There are far more chances/ways for firearms to cause a problem, than there is for ammo.
Case in point that directly relates to blown case webs: Glock makes a pistol that is probably the most reliable and durable of all pistols made. Glock even went so far as to adopt the moniker of “Glock Perfection”. However, in their first two generations (20 years) of manufacturing pistols, the Glock pistols chambered in 40 S&W kept experiencing case web blow outs with all types of ammo. Why? Not enough chamber support! Seems the engineers at Glock did not understand that 40 S&W brass was designed with much weaker case webs than 9MM brass and since Glock made only 9MM’s for their first several years of production, they ended up designing their 40 S&W pistols the same as their 9MM pistols. This was a big mistake made by the most perfect gun company (according to them) in the world. Modern Glocks chambered in 40 S&W now feature much more case web support and the problem is solved.
At any rate, I took the time on the Sunday before Christmas (I should not be working today) to address a customer’s (yours) complaint, only to have you upset that I did not ask about your son and that you think I was condescending. If your son was badly injured, you’d have stated such in your first email, no? I have now answered you twice on the Sunday before Christmas because I care about our customers and our product. If you still find my efforts to be condescending, it is on you. If you are still willing to assume the case web failure you experienced is the fault of the ammo, that will be on you as well. Sincerely, if there is anything else I can do, let me know.
Tim
I never responded to the last email.
