Range Report Ammo casing failure?

chris32817

Inactive
I need help identifying a casing failure problem on a Colt Delta Elite 10mm. I have fired hundreds of rounds of standard 10mm ammo and this is what happened after 4 rounds of Buffalo Bore 21B/20 180 gr JHC at 1350 fps. It destroyed my magazine but the gun seems undamaged otherwise. Just a couple of powder burns thankfully. I contacted Buffalo Bore and had some pretty terrible emails from them basically saying there is no way it's their fault and if I don't like that answer to bad. My Delta is at H&H getting a full checkup and sonic cleaning so I will be able to post barrel pics and show the fitting of the rounds when I get it back.
Open to suggestions and I can post more pics if I need to.
 

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Unless the ammo was way overpressure, it looks like the classic undercut chamber failure. If you've had barrel ramp work done, I''d give it a hard look at the 6 o'clock position of the ramp/chamber juncture. A .002 radius is acceptable there for 45 ACP and with the 10's greater pressures, .001 is all I'd do.

Please do post photos of the original barrel with a factory round in place, when you can.
 
because the 1911 was not designed for a high performance round such as true 10mm, ammo makers have either watered down their brand of 10mm ammo or created one marketed just for the CDE.
 
I agree with Sarge. It looks like an overthroated 1911. Early Glocks were known for this problem also.

If you want to run full power 10mm, you may want to change the barrel out for a fully supported one. I know both my 10mm 1911's are fully supported and I don't get those type of blow outs.

I would suggest you ask your smith about the case head support.
 
You put +p rounds in an unsupported chamber. I can see why Buffalo Bore said it wasn't their fault and they are correct. Anytime you put + P or +p+ rounds in a gun and fire them you're taking a chance. You're increasing the chance of more problems tenfold when you don't know you have an unsupported barrel.
 
As others have stated, your chamber doesn't support the brass at the 6 o'clock position (called an "unsupported chamber"). The hot rod Buffalo Bore 10mm loads are operating at a pressure too high for the brass to contain by itself without some steel around it.

The pic below shows unsupported versus supported 1911 .38 Super chambers, it's the same for 10mm.

Notice how in the "fully supported chamber" pic you can't see any of the cartridge case body (where your's blew out).
 

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You put +p rounds in an unsupported chamber. I can see why Buffalo Bore said it wasn't their fault and they are correct. Anytime you put + P or +p+ rounds in a gun and fire them you're taking a chance.
According to BB those are standard pressure loads.

Here's what BB has to say about that load:

"These loads bring out the full potential of the 10mm, but operate at standard pressures and as such, are safe to use in any standard 10mm pistol. Please don't phone us and ask if these loads are safe in your 10mm - THEY ARE--provided your 10mm is a normal operating pistol in good condition."

Curious situation.
 
I expect Buffalo Bore pressure tests this ammunition before shipment and it meets their standards.

Your barrel, my barrel, is different and pressures can be higher.

Looks to me like unsupported chamber issues, I would not fire anymore of this ammunition in your pistol.
 
"These loads bring out the full potential of the 10mm, but operate at standard pressures and as such, are safe to use in any standard 10mm pistol. Please don't phone us and ask if these loads are safe in your 10mm - THEY ARE--provided your 10mm is a normal operating pistol in good condition."

Looks like they were wrong about that.
 
I would not say so. The Colt Delta Elite is an older 10mm that was made prior to the general knowledge that you have to watch for blow outs. If it were a modern 10mm like a Kimber or Les Baer, I would expect a fully supported chamber. I know all of my 10mm's are fully supported but I have passed on Delta Elites a couple of times for just this reason.

So, not that I am trying to defend BB, but I think they have a valid point. The round is within limits and in this case it was fired in a gun that was not "really" designed to take the full SAAMI pressure limits.

A new fitted barrel would be my approach in this situation.
 
According to BB those are standard pressure loads.

Here's what BB has to say about that load:

"These loads bring out the full potential of the 10mm, but operate at standard pressures and as such, are safe to use in any standard 10mm pistol. Please don't phone us and ask if these loads are safe in your 10mm - THEY ARE--provided your 10mm is a normal operating pistol in good condition."

Curious situation.
Very curios.

They are running around 250 fps faster than standard 10mm 180 gr ammo. Some standard ammo goes up into the 1150 range where others are around1060. I know of no powder that can create that large of a performance increase without increasing pressure past SAMMI pressures. Typo? Who knows, but something not adding up there. Those are +p numbers with the listing of standard pressures.

Then again there could be a little twist in this part of their statement
provided your 10mm is a normal operating pistol in good condition
what is "normal" ? Factory? Fully supported chamber? Not every factory makes 10mm with fully supported chambers so what does it mean?

There are some guys in the hand loading/reloading section that could tell you more about this discrepancy in FPS. Maybe it could shed some light on what BB is claiming and if it is reasonable. Just from my reloading experience those are +p numbers and that means +p pressures to me.

but operate at standard pressures and as such
That's the conundrum, if they are at the same pressures as normal 10mm they would not have been the only ammo that blows out the casing.
 
PS...to the OP...I only assumed these were +p by the numbers, since you bought them as standard pressure ammo, I don't find a fault in your assumption they were good to go. Also their statement "normal" 10mm should have meant your gun. I am leaning towards a problem in their wording as the reason for your issue, maybe more.
 
FWIW, my Lyman manual has 1225fps as the highest velocity with a 180gr JHP of all powders listed. I usually assume anything over those figures to be over SAAMI spec and into the +p range. It shows 28,900CUP but there is another powder with a 30,000 CUP pressure.
 
FWIW, my Lyman manual has 1225fps as the highest velocity with a 180gr JHP of all powders listed. I usually assume anything over those figures to be over SAAMI spec and into the +p range. It shows 28,900CUP but there is another powder with a 30,000 CUP pressure.
I would say it is possible then to get another 125 FPS. ...my understanding is that SAMMI goes up to 37,500 CUP.

So now we know that you can achieve those numbers and be within standard pressure, we raise the next question, Why are the BB blowing out when other standard pressures aren't?

Could the COAL be too long causing a pressure spike in combination to the unsupported barrel? Maybe plunk test them?

I am all for not shooting the BB again but I believe there is something more than the unsupported Chamber causing these blowouts. If there is, it's best to know so that this thing doesn't repeat itself or worse. That or replace the Barrel with a better one.
 
They are running around 250 fps faster than standard 10mm 180 gr ammo. Some standard ammo goes up into the 1150 range where others are around1060. I know of no powder that can create that large of a performance increase without increasing pressure past SAMMI pressures. Typo? Who knows, but something not adding up there
I believe BB is claiming more than that.

They list the 180 gr @ 1600 fps in the first lower chart.

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=114

BB has always made some pretty fantastic claims - but - a lot of people who's opinion I value think highly of them.

I would say it is possible then to get another 125 FPS. ...my understanding is that SAMMI goes up to 37,500 CUP.
SAAMI is 37,500 PSI - not CUP.
CUP (copper units of pressure) and LUP (Lead units of pressure) don't correlate directly to PSI.
I'm really not sure why Lyman is using CUP instead of PSI in their manual.
 
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I think there is a disconnect occurring. You are mixing the responsibilities of the two different vendors involved and the SAAMI's guidelines.

Think about it. SAAMI sets a pressure guidance. 37.5 in this case. They also have guidance on the case specs and there are some assumptions of the brass type etc.

Now along comes BB and they come up with a load that meets SAAMI pressure guidance, but just barely. Say (and I am making this up) that they run the MAP at 37.4. In spec, but close to the edge. In a pressure barrel it is fine. They are an ammo manufacturer so they held up their side of the bargin.

Now the gun makers come along. Say Les Baer (since he built one of my 10mm's). He says to me (when I called him and asked him to build me one), hey, that is a high pressure round, I am going to fully support the case instead of the standard 1911 feed ramp. I of course say, go for it as you are the expert. The gun shows up and it can take anything I care to shove in it even nuclear loads that would make BB blush in embarrassment.

Now Glock comes along and says well, heck I need reliability and I don't care about reloads so I will over throat my G20 and make the chamber large. Me the buyer comes along, fires a few rounds and says "wow my g20 really trashes the brass and I am getting "glock smile". So out comes the barrel, in pops a fully supported KKM and now I shoot reloads that both Baer and BBore would be embarrassed to even contemplate. True over pressure, nearly 41 mag power level nuclear loads.

Next comes EAA with the witness (I am going in sort of reverse time here...), they say wow, High pressures. Fully support the chamber. I come along as a buyer and wow, great gun, rifle like power. I can shoot nuclear level reloads out of this thing that can never be repeated because what the heck. Fully supported solid steel and it is cheap ($285 with 5 mags when I bought mine).

Time passes and I get another Witness hunter and have the same results, fully supported, nuclear power levels.

Time passes and I get a Contender. This is really supported and now I am case limited. I just can't practically cram enough powder into the little 10mm case to really push the limits anymore. Cool gun though.

Other ammo manufacturers come along and say wow the 10mm is really powerful and we can sell a bunch. So they make up a bunch and we quickly find that it is more power than most folks want to deal with. They huddle for a while, S&W gets involved, time passes and the 40 S&W is born. This is the power level most folks can handle so they say, hmm, what to do with the 10mm? Well, lets wimp the power level down to about 100 fps more than the 40 and call it good. Since the 10mm case is so much bigger, this power level can be had with less pressure and so we have the 10mm power level of today from most big name ammo companies.

Now we get to the Delta Elite. Colt, has a long history of conventional 1911 format barrels so they say, "good enough". They make a great gun that can take the now conventional 40+P version of power that is vended by most companies today. It is not fully supported as the pictures above show. Life is good.

So now along comes cheap chrono's, more shooters and the demand for higher performance products. Buffalo Bore, Double Tap, Cor-bon come along and say, wow, there is a market for high performance 10mm ammo that actually can be made in SAAMI pressure spec that is real power. Great. They do it and the market IS there and folks buy it.

Now mix real SAAMI max 10mm ammo with an unsupported barrel and your casing blows. Had this been fired in my contender I strongly doubt it would have blown. In my witnesses I doubt it would blow. In my Baer, Glock (KKM version) or my other 10's I doubt it would have blown. In the Delta elite shown it blew.

So who is at fault here? Good question. Each party came to play making certain assumptions. Put them together correctly and no issue. Put them together wrong we have a classic case blow out from an unsupported chamber.
 
I guess I see it a little differently. The whole reason we have SAAMI specs to begin with are so gun makers and ammo makers can produce products that work safely together without having to test each possible combination of gun/ammo.

Assuming this is an unmodified pistol, it boils down to either Colt produced a weapon that is not safe with SAAMI spec ammo or BB produced faulty ammo. You can't have it both ways. If full load 10mm is unsafe in an unsupported chamber then either Colt has a recall on its hands or BB better get a big warning notice on their ammo about not using in certain weapons or those with unsupported chambers.
Colt MIGHT have let a weapon get out that can't safely handle SAAMI spec ammo but I'd be willing to bet they didn't.
 
Assuming this is an unmodified pistol, it boils down to either Colt produced a weapon that is not safe with SAAMI spec ammo or BB produced faulty ammo.

You believe that BB manufactures it's own brass?
 
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