Raising the age to purchase/own

D

Dusty Rivers

New member
I was wondering how many incidences there have been where the shooter bought an AR or AK legally and was under the age of 21? Are we going to alter the second amendment protection because of 1 person, or have there been many?

Cleanest way to provide real protection that does not involve the government, the president, or the need for useless laws is to let each community figure out local protection at schools. This can be done today everywhere! Don't need any new laws to accomplish school protection.

Why is it that one crazy person does evil and everyone else has to be legislated against in spite of obeying all the gun laws?

Raise the buying age for violent video games at the same time if it must be done.

How on earth are background checks going to be enhanced, managed, and have an appeals process? Sounds good on all the news talk shows and sound bites, but implementation always falls short. Remember the great software for the Health Care? Hope we don't have the same company.

I remain hopeful that logic drives the action not political views and sound bites. What the heck did the NRA do that caused the crazy person to do evil?
 
The point is well taken, each shooting has its own signature.

Logic says that gun deaths should be treated as a disease. It does not get discussed as logical though, often presented as logic with deeply emotional underpinnings.

The NRA used to say legally owned guns are not used in killings, that has proven to be a fallacy, though in Newton shooting the legally owned gun was stolen from the shooters mother (who was dead)

You find out what works. Then you implement it.

In this case, as has been noted, gun deaths are not just school shootings or mass killings (Vegas and Colorado Theater) but also suicides as well as smaller killings be it gang or stalkers.

That may indeed wind up with actions that impact the current take of some on the 2nd amendment.

In the case of the Florida shootings, there looks to have been plenty of warning, a local back ground check for ownership would have been grounds for disallowing purchase at all.

No one knows if that would have stopped the shooter from getting a gun.

And this gets into licensing of guns, required ownership transfer and the loose number of guns in the system.

At also bears in on the question, does the 2nd amendment stand in support of the other Freedoms or does it stand alone as a right?

If its failed in its purpose, then should it be changed?
 
“The NRA was there (implied as responsible) at the shooting because they advocate for gun violence.”
That’s the mentality they are up against, at least according to one of the protesters.
So get out of the political spectrum and ask objectively what could have helped:
Better mental health recognition and services?
Schools (and society) getting serious with bullying?
Restricting gun sales to older persons?
Prosecuting people who lie on background checks?
Having the FBI actually do their job following up on tips?
...

Who knows where we will end up.
There are a lot of commonalities in recent shootings but not a single variable attributable to all of the shooters.
 
Herea just a thought. When I was 18(2008-9)I never had the money to buy a gun. Wasn’t unatil after I was 21 that I impose bought my first. I had a room hard time finding money for gas and school when I was 18
I feel that in economic terms at 18 the cost is almost
 
In the case of the Florida shootings, there looks to have been plenty of warning, a local back ground check for ownership would have been grounds for disallowing purchase at all.
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The gun was purchased legally; the school knew about him, the Sheriff knew and the FBI did and no GOVERNMENT agency involved did anything correctly.
 
I've got four children, three of whom are older than 18, two of whom are older than 21. The difference in their maturity level from 18 to when they turned 21 was significant. Does this mean that I don't think they could have handled the responsibility that comes with gun ownership at 18? No. However, I cannot say the same thing about some of their friends. So, maybe raising the age to purchase rifles and shotguns to 21 isn't that bad an idea.
 
Just too soon to see the "devil in the details"

No. However, I cannot say the same thing about some of their friends. So, maybe raising the age to purchase rifles and shotguns to 21 isn't that bad an idea.
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Right now it's only a talking point and we have absolutely no idea, how it will shake out or even if it will. This takes legislative action and we all know that it will take years before those folks get off their dead ass. I live in the Midwest and we are a hunting community. We teach hunter safety at 12yrs and they can buy a hunting license at 16. If a parent wants to buy or give his kids a shotgun or rifle, there may be a problem, especially if extended background checks get stringent. ...... :mad:

I do not like how "potentially" it would turn out. My reception to this is mostly negative. Just too soon to get too mentally involved with this. .. :)

Be Safe !!!
 
RC20 said:
Logic says that gun deaths should be treated as a disease. It does not get discussed as logical though, often presented as logic with deeply emotional underpinnings.
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In what logical way are gun deaths like a disease?

The NRA used to say legally owned guns are not used in killings, that has proven to be a fallacy, though in Newton shooting the legally owned gun was stolen from the shooters mother (who was dead)
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Where has the NRA said that? I think they have pointed out that in around 75% of firearm homicides the murderer had a prior criminal history.
 
I don't think we should keep raising the age limit jus because some are not mature enough. We should raise our expectations for them.

It used to be no age limit as far as I can remember. Lots of kids owned .22LR or .410 shotguns. Then we started requiring age limits for buying guns and ammo and if anything shootings are worse now.

I fundamentally do not agree with laws restricting ownership. I would rather have laws based on behavior that are enforced. It is a rarity for someone, especially a youth, to go from perfect law abiding to rampaging murderer. The vast majority of times the person has built up to it, and people ignored the signs, did not loo at what he had in his bedroom, did not supervise who he hung out with, etc.

And along with poor supervision these kids seem to have plenty of money to throw around. Parents should be held partially responsible for the actions of their minor children. A young man 18 or older is old enough to be held accountable for his own actions.

We should not punish the millions of 18 yr olds that act perfectly responsible just because some fraction of them won't behave no matter their age.
 
training

Before you can get a hunting license in most states you need some kind of hunter safety training. Before you can get a drivers license there is a training/skill level assessment. I think a similar thing for purchasing a firearm when under the age of 21 would be appropriate. You could even make some kind of mental health/maturity evaluation as part of it. This could be enacted by each state rather than federal, or not.

There are logical things that can be fleshed out and implemented if only politics were set aside. It's about time we have representation that is concerned about doing the right thing, what ever the right thing is, but changing the second amendment in any form is unacceptable. The second amendment was never about hunting, but protection!
 
True

It is a rarity for someone, especially a youth, to go from perfect law abiding to rampaging murderer. The vast majority of times the person has built up to it, and people ignored the signs, did not loo at what he had in his bedroom, did not supervise who he hung out with, etc.
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I agree with you. Sometimes parents aren't diligent in watching what their children are doing.

However, children today are very good at hiding what's really going on in their lives from their parents. I've been through that with my children. The world they live in is very different from the one I grew up in. Facebook, Instagram, SnapChat, and other social media provides them the means with which to live completely separate lives from the ones they live at home. Even if you monitor their posts, that doesn't mean that they don't have other accounts that you don't know about and the ones you see are just the ones they let you see. Parents have lost much of the control over their children than in previous generations.

This world they live in (which brings me to the part in bold text) is much more intense in terms of the bullying they endure. Back in my day, there was no such thing as constant bullying. Once you left school and made it home, you were basically in a safe place away from the people making fun of you, talking about you behind your back, etc. Not so in today's teenage world. Their phones are everything to them, and the bullying follows them wherever they go. This is how, in my opinion, that anger--feeling "less than"--can turn into a rage that can lead to violently acting out. Their world is centered online, their peers have a louder voice than that of their parents (totally normal for any teenager), and they have to endure a level of bullying that is much greater than what we had to deal with at the same age.

So, while I don't pretend to understand everything that goes into a teenager choosing to shoot their way out of the pressures they deal with, I know that they are under more pressures in high school than previous generations. This is why I'm not against raising the age to buy and own rifles and shotguns to 21. By the time they reach that age they are out of high school and have hopefully matured enough to know how to better deal with the nonsense that goes on online. I know it happened with my children.
 
Have you considered the unintended consequences would be? Society has been wanting protected from all these bad things that happen to them. Then they start complaining about government over reach. Example the campaign against drunk drivers and now we have road blocks. Congress would have to pass a law to increase the age because of the Militia Act. We as a society needs to quit coddling young adults and make them stand up. Grand paw was correct 0-13 was a child, 13-18 was a young adult 18 up was a adult with all the good and bad that goes with it.
 
No, we should not increase the age limit. We need to hold the murderer accountable for his actions, up to and including the death penalty. We should hold accountable those who 'dropped the ball" on this murderer when he was building up to his rampage. We should hold the Coward County cops accountable for refusing to go in and stop the murders.
But we should not, ever, let the actions of one crazed thug destroy our freedoms.
 
Training 18 year olds to kill with M16s doesn't seem consistent with a general prohibition of those under 21 from owning a semi-auto rifle or handgun. But that's our government, and they know what they're doing.
 
BBarn, the key difference is the word "training". It makes a big difference. There's a lot more the military trains its troops in than how to properly handle an M16. Recruits are trained on decision making, being part of team, learning discipline, etc. etc. So, an 18 year old in the military is different than your run of the mill 18 year old.
 
The difficulty is the culturally defective issues that have evolved over at least the last 50 years are multi-focal, and our current microwave, computer assisted, immediate expectation environment is retarding any meaningful solution to the gun issue.

As my children matured and provided grandchildren, I shared with them an episode I saw on the Discovery Channel. A mother lion was resting as her cubs were being playful. One decided to investigate his surroundings, leaving the barrier of protection Mom could provide. She reached out, dragged him back. Shortly thereafter, he repeated the attempt. She pulled him back. After the third attempt she reached out and smacked him smartyly across the head, then dragged him back.

We need better parenting. But for that we need a stable family environment. For that we need problem resolution that escapes from divorce. We need a move toward living within our means and less reliance on credit card survival. We lose the pleasure of what we have by wanting more. We need a return to honesty being the best policy, with resultant trustworthiness. We need a move away from Uncle Sam being Mom and Dad with control over our destiny in our own hands at the best, and most local, level. Religious affiliation notwithstanding, we need a return to the solitude of houses of worship that allow self-reflection, analysis of personal needs to change in order to satisfy personal stability and community performance.

This may take another 50 years to accomplish. It will not be solved by increasing the age of gun purchase to 21. But ignoring the complexity of the task will assure it will never be accomplished.
 
SonOfScubaDiver said:
I've got four children, three of whom are older than 18, two of whom are older than 21. The difference in their maturity level from 18 to when they turned 21 was significant. Does this mean that I don't think they could have handled the responsibility that comes with gun ownership at 18? No. However, I cannot say the same thing about some of their friends. So, maybe raising the age to purchase rifles and shotguns to 21 isn't that bad an idea.
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The maturity thing is true. When I turned 18, I was still stuck at home because I was doing college. I didn't get my own place until I was 22, but I remember when I was 20 I felt a lot more mature because I'd finally gotten my own car and that's a big responsibility.

Before 20, I was basically the same as I was when I was 16. The hormones were raging just as hard and I had one thought on my mind.

I don't like the idea of girls not being able to buy a gun to protect themselves though. I think the handgun age should be dropped to 18 for females, it's just common sense.
 
21 for all firearms purchases I find reasonable. That's a whole lot better than enduring a life time ban. I'm pretty sure the way things are today (mass shootings) Trump or any current President holding office can lead congress into Banning any firearm_magazine or whatever part_ deemed inappropriate for civilian ownership. Well~~ that's my opinion on such a touchy subject "Lets get real on Gun Ownership."
 
I don't think anyone should be able to buy a handgun at 18 unless they have taken an approved course and demonstrated adequate competency. People do not automatically become an adult the instant they turn 18 except in a legal sense. If someone is immature and irresponsible one day, they are highly unlikely to be much different the next day. But that's just my opinion, and a very general one at that. I have a daughter that I thought at one time maybe should have a pistol to protect herself. Exploring that possibility made me realize that she was probably safer without it. The responsibility that needs to accompany the possession of weapon is pretty high. Not everyone is up for it.
It's good that we have the 2nd Ammendment. But we are in danger of losing it if we can't support legislation that honors it while preventing those that really should not have guns from getting them. We are going to have gun control whether we like it or not. It would be better if those that support the Second Ammendment are initiating BETTER GUN CONTROL, rather than standing by saying, "Nay!", as the anti-gun movement forces their agenda upon us. You, personally, may not need any gun-laws, because you are a responsible individual. We should all be so; but that's not realistic.
 
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