Quick draw McGraw...horse pucky...

A

Ankeny

New member
"Regardless of your experience prior to entering this course, upon completion, your gun handling, marksmanship, and tactical skills will be better than they have ever been and you will be able to safely and easily draw your weapon from a CONCEALED holster and fire two, sighted shots to the center of a target 5 yards away-all under 1.5 seconds! That's right, from a concealed holster in 1.5 seconds!"

Hmmm...well that's the claim from one of the leading shooting schools. So I grabbed my timer and went to the range. Wearing a thigh length coat, 1911 style pistol in a paddle holster behind the right hip, pistol concealed by the cover garment...buzzzz, draw, double tap. No way. Tried it again. No way...too slow. Best I could do is 1.7 seconds.

OK, leave the jacket back and point shoot. Buzzz...not a problem. What's with this claim? No BS please.
 
You can't do that? Sheesh! Get out of my forum! ;)

Me neither. I'm still working on it, myself. I can get close- it all depends on my definition of "two SIGHTED shots." I'm sure theres someone around with lightning reflexes, well?

Erik
 
Depends on the concealment, depends on the holster....if you're concealment is something like a sweatshirt, that has to be lifted as you draw,from a leather holster, it's going to be slower than, for example, a kydex holster from under a light windbreaker.I don't think mid to high 1's are bad at all from concealment.
 
The deciding factor is what they are considering concealment.
1.5 sec is plenty of time for 2 aimed shots if you're carrying the right rig.

------------------

Desertscout
desertscout@hotmail.com

"The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference -- they deserve a place of honor with all that is good."
--George Washington
 
At the distance of 5 yds there should not be that much sighting. Engagement at this range would use the front site at most. With enough practice it should become second nature, more like point shooting. At the last qualification at 5 yds the weapon was brought to about shoulder height. At this range the point of site alignment is moot.

Be Safe
Mike
 
Hi folks,

Ankeny, 1.7 seconds is pretty darn good. But "regardless of experience"? Someone who never fired a gun before? I think I hear a long bow being drawn.

Note that the claim says nothing about reaction time, which is considerable, or where the hand is when the action starts. If the time is from draw (pistol movement in holster), I know it can be done, and rather easily. But if time starts with a buzzer, then reaction time counts and it gets iffy.

A lot of real world "gunfights" take place at under 10 feet, often under three. I also wonder whether aiming really means using the sights. At short range, I certainly aim (gun is visible in my line of sight) but I don't waste time getting a perfect sight picture.

Jim
 
Well, the claim is from Frontsight. It really got to bothering me so I dug up a tape of the USPSA Nationals from a couple of years ago. Brian Enos won the speed event. We all know he is fast. Before any of you guys tell me you can draw and fire two rounds from concealment at the buzzer in less than 1.5 seconds consider this.

Enos was using his 1911 style pistol with his speed rig. His fastest time to the first shot was .82 seconds. Two shots in one second.

Now take Richard Thistle off the street, put the pistol in a concealment rig behind the hip and add a cover garment. Add four days of training...

Oh, well...I'll let it drop. I think Jim is on the mark here.
 
Boy you guys are slow. I can do it in less than 1..... oh wait, I thought you said Minutes, not Seconds. ;)

That does sound pretty darn fast to me. Even 1.7 sounds great.
 
I don't know about you guys, but I can start with my hands in my pockets, "weapon" concealed, and draw and fire an aimed social digit (as okjoe likes to refer to it) at a perp in less than 1 second!!!!

:)
 
The claim is true. And yes, from a relaxed stance at the sound of a buzzer or whistle. I didn't believe it either, before I took my first Front Sight course. It has a lot to do with fluid and proper movement with no wasted motion. Once this technique is instilled into your subconscious mind, you're getting close to the time. Enter the "Combat Mindset". You've got to get "Mad Dog Mean", boys. Your life depends on those few tenths of a second that you're intent on shaving off of your time. Once you start making the time, you will probably notice your groups opening up a little. You have the rest of your life to work on the "Balance of Speed & Accuracy". No one is perfect, your skill level depends on how often, and how well you "dry practice". Nonetheless, you would probably be amazed at the product that Front Sight's students represent. Front Sight has taken me from a novice of thirty years to the edge of Handgun Combat Master in very short order. Times for that test are quite a bit quicker than you are talking about. Accuracy is paramount, only takes a few misses to fail. Easiest part of the test: Type 3 clearance in 4.0 seconds.

Ok, Erik: You got me there, my reaction time averages 1/10th of a second, but the "average" (1/3 sec.) and even "slow" (1/2 sec.) guys are doing it, too.

Jim: Believe it or not, of all of the first time (attendance) students, the ones who have never shot before gain the most. A lot of time gets "wasted" breaking old (bad) habits for the "seasoned" shooter. Not that they too, are not astonished at their performance by the end of the course.
The school does not promote firing the shot until you are hard focused on the front sight.

We're doing the same thing with rifles and shotguns from "sling on shoulder", at substantially greater distances. (I could tell you how, but then I'd hafta....) Due to the greatly increased stopping power, only one shot is required from those weapons.

I've been through all of their courses, some multiple times. Any more questions?

------------------
The Bible is my lawbook. I turn the other cheek when applicable, and spend the rest of my days resisting evil at every front, until I have breathed my last breath.

[This message has been edited by fastforty (edited February 16, 2000).]
 
Someone thinks a shooting is a fast draw contest? If the gun isn't in your hand when it starts your chances of living are nil. As for focusing on the front sight, how do you do that in low light or near darkness?
Me thinks Matt Dillion is in charge of their training.
Even if someone thought you could draw in 1.5 seconds or even 10 seconds they ASSUME you figured out you are in trouble. That means you are starting out BEHIND. Chances you will catch up are pretty slim. It means you didn't have the gun IN your hand and missed something going on around you. Such survival has nothing to do with fast draw. I'd refer to it as FATAL draw.

------------------
Specialists in the use and training of lethal force.
 
pluspinc;
I think you`re right on target (pun intended). If you`re in condition white you`ve got big problems. I wouldn`t doubt that it can be done as I knew someone who did it. Maybe it was 2 seconds but he drew from a service holster and shot an armed perp who was pointing a gun at him. He was walking into a store to buy cigarettes. No gun run, just out of butts. The perp had the luxury of seeing him first and still died. A lot had to do with training and experience. Another cop, maybe a different outcome. The drill can help if it`s part of an overall plan. Maybe you`re walking through the parking lot and you see someone coming at you with a weapon. No training and you over analyze or worse yet, freeze up. Hopefully, it`s the BG who hesitates because his easy mark just grew fangs. My .02.
 
I walked into a robbery on my birthday when I went into a store to get candles for my birthday cake. I was LUCKY they didn't see me. Bad guys 0...me 1.
A few laters I was on a stakeout and came out of a backroom at a thug with a gun IN his hand when I felt he was going to shoot the clerk. I had my gun in MY hand and he managed to get the first shot off. My vest stopped the slug but I hit the floor from the blood pressure spike. Even with the gun IN the hand it is iffy business at best. Trying to convince someone they can do a fast draw is asking for trouble. Considering the various clothing we wear, various holsters or guns, the changes alone make any realistic fast draw very marginal. Being in uniform with an exposed holster is another story, but what the guru's FORGOT is that today the name of the game is security holsters and with level 2 or 3 you'll never make the mystical 1.5 seconds.
They are living in the 60's if they think you can do it with holsters that have the gun packaged like a salami from Italy.
I'd rather put my efforts in AVOIDING the problem or when the hairs on the neck start to tingle to start the process. That's my final a answer.
 
With the appropriate training and repetition, a person can clear a level two holster in that time frame. At quals I have cleared a Safariland level 2 and a Safariland SS070 level 3 holster in the before mentioned times. It just takes practice. With the level 2 I can draw the weapon fire two rounds and go to low ready in 1.23 secs. But this took alot of standing in front of the mirror and even more range training. An individual needs to get into the fluid motion and all will fall into place.

Be Safe
Mike
 
Plus P Darrell,
I doubt that anyone here thinks that a shooting is a fast draw contest. However, can you cite some advantage to be gained by drawing more SLOWLY than one can? As to how one focuses on the front sight in low light, try asking Julio....they've got these new-fangled things that GLOW. Really!

Fastforty,
When timing that 1.5 second draw/2 shots, it does matter whether you are starting at the sound of a "buzzer or whistle". The two are not equivalent in the sense that the buzzer is usually on an electronic timer and the whistle is being used with a hand-held stopwatch. In the case of the stopwatch, the operator must "stop" the watch after he perceives your second shot. As you discussed, there is the issue of human reaction time. The stopwatch operators reaction time is going to add .10, .20, or more to the time shown, so the stopwatch timing of a given event will show a slower time than the electronic timing of same. Thus, if some arbitrary time limit is set for a given drill, the manner of timing ought to be specified.

Rosco
 
One, Desertscout, Motorep: Thanx for the confirmation.

Rosco: Yes, the manner of timing does make a difference. For the Combat Master Tests, a pac timer is the only way. One or two one-hundredths of a second is all it takes for a "late" call. The tests are long and rigorous, that is why it is so difficult to pass them. It's not that most of those who attempt it don't have the neccesary speed & accuracy skills, it's just that there is so little a margin for error, and so many opportunities for failure are presented.

Plusp: True, if you have the opportunity of having your gun in your hand when the threat materializes, you're way ahead of the curve. LEO's are allowed to do that, civilians are not. We would get stuck with "brandishing" and "menace with a firearm" charges for such action. Without the option of walking around with an exposed holster, and being permitted to draw whenever we "felt it might be neccesary", the only other option is a "smooth and fast presentation from concealment". There are also techniques that allow one the time to draw and fire before the BG has a chance to react. Just a few of the options in the Tactical Toolbag.

As far as not knowing what is going on around you, you're right. Caught in "condition white", your chances of survival are pretty close to nil. Anyone with proper TRAINING (I know you just hate that word) wouldn't be in "white". We've been through this one before, Darrel. The BG seldom has the mental "triggers" set. With proper training, you do, and that puts you back into the curve. And yes, avoiding the threat is the best way to survive it. Problem is, sometimes it is unavoidable, due to surrounding circumstances. Since you don't believe that training is worth your time, is this where you call on your vast knowledge of statistics from the 60's to save your hide? No, nobody forgot about the concealment factor, it is very common for students to make these times with surprising accuracy.

I won't even try to respond to the "Matt Dillon" poke, you obviously don't have a clue.

Keep pouring through your "statistics", Darrel. The rest of us will continue to actively prepare ourselves to contradict them, should the opportunity unavoidably present itself.



------------------
The Bible is my lawbook. I turn the other cheek when applicable, and spend the rest of my days resisting evil at every front, until I have breathed my last breath.
 
As for reacting to a BG with a gun. I was using the phone at a local beer and music joint several years back. A guy came over obviously wanting to use the phone. He was very skitish and impatient looking. He left and came back several times over the next two minutes or so. Finally he yelled something nasty and tried to hang up the phone for me. So I put in another quarter... This really upset him. He left again, returning shortly afterward with his hand conspicuously in his jacket pocket. "Uh oh," I though. As his hand began to clear his jacket and it was obvious it held a snubby revolver I let go of the phone and grabbed his arm with one hand and his throught with the other, driving him into the wall. At almost the same time, a bouncer and a LEO appeared as if by majic, and clobbered the guy. I was lucky, and subsequently avoid phones in bars. But my perception and reaction time played a role in the outcome. Had I been armed at the time I would not have deviated from what I did as the bar was very crowded. But had I been carrying and there been no bystanders around a quiker draw than his would have been an obvious asset.
 
Been there, done that, got the T-shirt, hat, and pin ;) Although they are fairly lenient in not counting the shot bad when you shoot at the same time as the second buzzer. Most people wear a light windbreaker, and put some weight in the pocket.
 
Fastforty:

I am drawing from concealment and I have to "sweep" the garment aside. Also, I am using a timer, the CED 6000 that Dillon is selling. I use the random delay, starting with arms at the sides. I can't make the 1.5 second time with two aimed shots into the center of a Q target at 7 yards. My best is 1.7 seconds. It just seemed to me that the claim made by Front Sight of taking a shooter with little or no past experience and getting them beyond my level in four days is a bit unrealistic. I just can't imagine an average Joe sweeping a sport coat out of the way and getting two aimed shots (hits) that fast. OTOH, I am not very fast and the majority of my shooting has been Action Pistol and PPC where a fast draw isn't needed.

Just to clear things up, I am talking about pure gamesmanship here not self defense. I shoot for the fun of it and I really don't get too carried away with some of the hyper-serious self defense training like some folks. If I ever have to defend myself I hope I already have a firearm in my hands and I would prefer it to be a shotgun.
 
Well guys, no one said anything about adding the stress of a real life situation. The claim was that you would be able to do it in a range environment and I have no doubt that MOST people will be able to do it. Those that can and practice it occasionally will have a better chance of being able to do it in a real life shootout whether they actually do or not.
Also, I didn't see anything in the claim about how the gun was concealed so no one needs to ASSUME anything about clothes, holster or position.

Now that we've leveled the field a little, let me tell you what we do here just for the sake of discussion.

During our defensive handgun class, just to show folks how much time they don't have, we put a silhouette target 3 yds in front of the shooter and station a runner 7 yds to the side and slightly behind the shooter. At the whistle, the runner runs as hard as he can towards the shooter and attempts to tap him on the shoulder before he gets a shot off. The shooter is to stand relaxed and draw from a snapped holster(if applicable) and fire as many times as possible before being tapped.

We don't use a timer because we feel that it adds a little stress to put the "aggressor" in. I can assure you that it takes much less than 1.5 seconds for the average person to cover 7 yds. Depending on the shooter and his experience, we may or may not do it from concealment. The shooters that try it from concealment have maybe a 20% success ratio at first. However, the shooters that draw from a street rig(no competition holsters or guns allowed)will have better than an 75% chance of drawing and getting at least one shot off before being tapped after a little coaching. We don't use the term 'aimed shot' in this because I stress focusing only on the front sight and I don't consider that to be really aiming. We call it 'delivering effective fire' for lack of something better to call it.
Now this is a little different than racing a clock and guaranteeing someone that they can do it from a concealed position in so much time. But, racing another person like this gives you LESS time regardless of how you wear your gun. Here in NM we can carry openly just about anywhere we want with very few restrictions.
Granted, if you are in 'condition white'(brain-dead), you probably will not be able to draw in time when a friendly, clean-cut guy walks up, smiles and waves and then charges with a knife from 21 feet. The point of the exercise is to show that you cannot EVER afford to be in condition white.

I can usually get between 2 to 4 effective shots delivered depending on the runner. I can also draw my G27 from a snapped holster without a round in the chamber, chamber a round and deliver at least 1 shot before being tapped. About 15-20% of my students are also able to this before they leave but it takes a little more practice.

I know that I will catch hell for stating this, I have before. But an open invitation stands for anyone that would like to prove/disprove it. Just e-mail me and I'll give you directions to my range.



------------------

Desertscout
desertscout@hotmail.com

"The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference -- they deserve a place of honor with all that is good."
--George Washington
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top