Questions: P08 WWII Bringback Lugar

M

MikeyD

Inactive
As others have, I inherited my Dad's WWII P.08 9mm German Lugar bring-back. I also have the original paperwork from the US Army outlining and authorizing what he was bringing back. I have taken it completely apart, cleaned and reassembled it (lots of video's on how to do this) and confirmed that it's a matching numbers gun (including firing pin & trigger). I also have another firing pin that was "filed down" - I think I remember my Dad saying that was a gov't requirement for bring-back (the filed down pin had to be installed).

I also purchased another firing pin (so now I have 2 good and 1 filed), because I'd like to bring it to the shooting range along with my other guns, and I don't want to risk damaging the original firing pin (in case it has value).

It came with 2 magazines; however, they have different numbers on them.
I have the original holster and the disassembly tool which is stored inside the holster lid.

My questions are:
  1. Based on the description and pictures/condition (link to dropbox below), can anyone tell me how valuable this gun is (or isn't). :)
  2. Where can I get it appraised (I live in central NJ), if there is a chance it has significant value?
  3. Will a new Mec-Gar Lugar P.08 9mm Lugar 8 round steel blued magazine work in this gun? (I don't really want to risk using the originals in case they have value).
  4. Does anyone know the meaning of the specific numbers on my gun? i.e. Why don't I have an "S/" before my 42 on the top? Why is there a 41 on the barrel and 42 on the slide, but 34 on both?, etc, etc, etc...
  5. Does anyone know the meaning of the numbers on the magazines (9351 & 8650)? Are they also supposed to match the gun? What does the "N" stand for?
  6. Finally, can I fire this gun with reasonable confidence that there won't be a catastrophic failure, or is it too risky to fire unless I first have it checked out by a gunsmith? (I'll be using standard 115g 9mm range ammo).
I can't thank you enough (in advance) for any info you all can provide... and in general, for this site.
It has provided me a wealth of information... and it's FUN looking around!
Thanks! Mike

Click on the link below \/ \/ \/ \/ to view my pictures:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/af8v75zqqnhfhus/AAD1RU__YukDRGvh7d_oWVgra?dl=0

Thanks again...
 
Welcome to the site. I'm not a Luger guy so I can't help you out much beyond saying that matching numbers makes the gun much more collectable (read valuable).

I'm sure someone, probably even as I type is coming along to help you even if just pointing you to one of the dedicated Luger forums.

Good luck, and nice pictures of the Luger by the way. Also of mentioning you had the holster and takedown tool!
 
Let's see.

First, you have a very nice German Pistole 1908, aka P.08 aka Luger.

I'll get to value later, but right now some other answers.

The Mec-Gar magazines will probably work, but I see no reason not to fire the gun using the magazines that came with it; they are not especially fragile and unless somehow damaged should work fine and retain their value.

The numbers on the magazines are the serial numbers of the pistols in which they were originally installed. The P.08 came from the factory with two magazines numbered to the gun (your gun's would have been 4934n), one of which had a + sign indicating that it was the spare magazine placed in the holster. But magazines were often lost or damaged and replaced by ones from other guns; mismatched magazines obviously reduce the gun's value, but the condition is so common that few collectors worry about it.

The "n" is part of the serial number. Serial numbers went from 1-9999, 1a-9999a, 1b-9999b, and so on for each year. NOTE that a full description of that gun must include the year, maker and serial number including the suffix letter.

The "41" on the receiver ring is the year of manufacture, 1941. The "42" is the manufacturer's code in use by the manufacturer (Mauser) at that time (1938-1941). The codes were changed from time to time; earlier Mauser had been assigned "S/42", later they were asssigned "byf".

The 655 is the number assigned to the head of the Army WaffenAmt (Weapons Office) inspection team at Mauser. He did not personally inspect and mark the guns, but he was responsible for oversight of production on behalf of the army. (The current American equivalent would be Contracting Officer's Representative or COR).

You should have no problem firing the gun with any standard 9x19 (9mm Luger) ammunition; avoid +P and +P+ ammo; the gun won't blow up but hot loads have been known to break ejectors.

Now the tricky part - value. I would say at least $1500, but others may have different ideas. Appraisers might also, but note that professional appraisals cost money and rarely come up with any information on common guns that cannot be obtained free by checking the web auction and sale sites for actual sale prices on similar guns. In the end, the value is exactly what someone will pay for it.

Jim
 
Wow, beautiful. It's worth what someone is willing to pay for it and I'd say probably around 2grand.

I'd love to have a Luger, it's soo cool looking. I also want a Mauser c96, but alas, you need money for expensive guns like these
 
Welcome to the forum!

Jim covered things nicely.

I doubt you are intending to make that pistol your everyday gun, but I
think it's great to hear you'll take out Dad's trophy once in a while.

I put the value a little higher, definitely over two with no problem getting it.

Holster (common maker) would add another 500 - 700 to it in that high condition.
You probably know not to store the pistol (or magazine or loading tool) in the holster to keep from staining the leather with gun oil.
The strap on that holster looks so nice, I almost questioned the originality of the holster.
While I personally doubt the gun and holster were an original pair, they make for a nice set!

Only a little over 12,000 41-42's were made, making it the second
most rare WW II variation slightly behind the 'k' (1934) dates.

It is not all that uncommon for a mismatched magazine to be close
in manufacture timeline and even have the same letter suffix.

No doubt the delivery of that grouping of pistols was to the same staging area
in early 1941, which is that pistol's manufacture date, in preparation
for the long march by two million soldiers into Russia in June of that year.
Obviously, that pistol stayed behind or made it back.

But it is the first Luger I've seen with two mismatched mags that DID match the pistol's letter suffix!
Figuring they are both FXO - E/37 marked that is.

Thanks for sharing both your family heirloom and a very collectible Luger too boot,
JT
 
The holster is a bit puzzling as a brown holster should be police issue, but that one has the WaA acceptance mark. As I understand it, there would be no such thing as an "original" holster, if by that is meant one shipped from the factory with the gun. Pistols were shipped from the factory in wood crates of 20 guns, along with the magazines and tools. Crates were broken up only if a unit requisition made it necessary. Holsters were requisitioned separately and pistol and holster met at the time unit supply issued the gun to the soldier or officer who would carry it. Magazines were supposed to go with the gun to which they were numbered, one magazine in the gun, the second (+) magazine in the holster slot. But in wartime, it is not hard to see that the system could break down.

Edited to make a correction.

Jim
 
Nice item there. I am in Northwest NJ and would consider buying that thru my local dealer. PM me if interested in selling local.

Thank you

Rich
 
Nice P08!.

The Mecar mags do work fine, I use them in both of my P08s. Interesting story about filing down the firing pin. I have my dad's 'bring back' and he was never required to file down the firing pin. The misalignment of the S/N on the receiver is a little confusing. I have not seen that on original guns.

If you want much more detailed info, I suggest visiting the Luger Forum. Those guys will want very detailed photos to tell you exactly what you have. Decoding Lugers is not very straight forward.

Enjoy the gun, do not dry fire it!
 
While they tried to keep brown leather gear for police and black for the military, evidence of both in service with both abounds.

the classic belt, Y harness, ammo pouches and holsters got worn by nearly everyone and as the war went on they got less ..picky about standards, simply having enough of the right gear was more important.

That holster could have been mated to the gun when it was first issued, or anytime after, up PAST the end of the war, prior to it being brung back.

Interstingly, despite all the milsurps and bring backs I have known or heard of over the years, this is the first time I every heard of any "govt requirement" to have the firing pin filed off.

Perhaps it was a requirement from a local area commander?
 
A friend's father brought a Radom back through the port of NY and the city had men at the dock with orders to deactivate souvenir pistols; they welded the end of the barrel shut. Most of the GI's simply ignored them, but my friend's father was a stickler for following the rules and he turned his souvenir over for "deactivation". Many years later, I got him another barrel for his Radom and restored it to serviceability. (I have often discounted such stories, but the man told me the story himself and, knowing the insane anti-gun policies of that state and city, I believe it.)

FWIW, when the Germans conquered Poland, they wanted to use the Radom factory to make pistols for themselves, but they didn't trust the Poles not to divert guns to the underground. So they removed the barrel making machinery and shipped it to Steyr in Austria, then part of Germany, where the barrels were made. The rest of the gun was made in Poland, then shipped to Steyr, where the barrels were installed and the guns proved and accepted.

Jim
 
With the papers, magazines, tool, and all matching, very nice condition, I certainly concur with the $1500 value noted above.

The last year of production for Lugers was 1942, about 9,000 pistols. So you've got one of the last of them.

The holster is valuable in it's own right, I've seen them sell for up to $400. If it's numbered to the pistol, I would add that value to the $1500, say $1750 total.

And, second the motion, DO NOT fire hot loads in this, it's 75 years old and you don't want to break it. Go ahead and run a box of 50 through it, enjoy it, then clean and oil it and put it away.

I have read somewhere that due to the numbers of GI's shooting themselves with captured Lugers, some commanders required they be turned in to Company clerks for storage, or just the magazines, whatever, so perhaps the firing pin shortening was done in a unit that didn't want to be dealing with a bunch of souvenirs.
 
Deactivating souvenir guns was also done at home, when the wife or mother read one of the many diatribes in the press about those evil, murderous war souvenirs and demanded that the dirty, nasty foreign weapon be rendered harmless.

Jim
 
Nice Luger! I hope you keep your father's heirloom in the family, it would be a shame to sell it.

Mec-Gar mags work very well in my P.08 and I don't use my original magazines (which didn't feed that well due to weak springs). New springs could be installed but it's best to leave the old magazines original.

P.08 was never stamped on Lugers until the last two years, 1941 and 1942. Yours of course has it. My 1941 byf looks much like your 1941 "42" (and both are made by Mauser). They are strong pistols but I'd limit the number of rounds because of the chance of breaking a numbered part. I also have a mixed numbers Luger for a shooter.
 
Thanks for all your reply's

I can't thank you all enough, for the informative and valuable feedback.
I intend to keep this family heirloom - my son is in the military and he's already told me he'd disown me if I ever got rid of "grandpa's" Lugar. :eek:

As for the firing pin being filed down - not sure if it was a local commander requirement or maybe "mom" telling dad he couldn't keep it unless he disabled it (but then why wouldn't he have just removed the pin). Dad's gone, so that part of the story will have to forever remain a mystery.

We have fired her at the range using standard 9mm ammo and I must say... she is "dead-on" at 20'.
She is also a very smooth firing gun. My wife "loved" shooting her and it now appears like I'm going to be finding a daily shooter, because she wants one and I don't want to take any chances with the heirloom.

One thing I noticed is that shell casings are slightly deformed when ejected (indicating the bore is slightly larger than 9mm), and the last time shot her, the casing got jammed, requiring a steel rod push-out through the front of the barrel.
Is this normal maybe due to some bore size deviation of the time?

Additionally, after looking at the bring-back paperwork, the Luger is listed as "Pistol Lugar 38 4934". Maybe they it to be a .38?

Again, thanks for all the responses - this has turned out to be a great experience.:D
 
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Glad you're keeping the P.08 in the family. Maybe .38 was written on the bring back papers because .38 caliber was common for Americans back in the day and metric measurements were foreign and strange. Anyway 9mm and .38 Special are roughly the same caliber, .355" vs .357". And if "Luger" was spelled "Lugar", well that's another mistake.
 
I have the 'bring back papers' for my dad's luger. It also has .38 caliber listed. My dad said he had to get the papers through the department of the navy in order to bring it home on the ship. My dad said the navy could only speak in calibers so it was listed a a .38 since it was the closest.
 
Yep, but I think your dad was having some fun. In "Navy speak", the "caliber" of bigger guns was the barrel length in shell diameters; so a 5-inch, 38-caliber fired a 5" shell from a barrel 5x38 inches (15.83 feet) long. Not many were brought back as souvenirs since they wouldn't fit in a sea bag.

Jim
 
Probably because it is (and is marked) 11.25mm. That is the Norwegian and European designation for the .45 ACP.

Jim
 
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