Questions on how to start a rebellion?

F

FUD

Moderator
This is a follow-up to "It's MY property!" and is mainly addressed to Dennis but others are obviously free to join in with ideas and comments.

When I was having my house built, I was informed that it would be in a community with a home owner's association. When I inquired about the rules & regulations associated with this community, I was informed that the association was just getting started (the entire community was being built up) and the rules have yet to be finalized.

On the day of closing, after I handed them my check, I was given the keys to my house along with a 200-300 page book of by-laws associated with the community. I never agreed to any of this stuff yet I still have to abide by it.

There are hundreds of stupid rules (Can't have a pick-up truck in the driveway; can't park on the street; can't display an American flag but a flag with flowers & butterflies is okay; etc.) and violation of any of the rules results in a $100.00 fine PER DAY and failure to pay the fine results in a lien being placed against the property.

I no longer feel as if I'm living in a free country but I've tried to mind my own business and go along with these rules but this past week-end was the final straw. I received a notice that according to chaper xx.x: section yy.y: paragraph zz.z: I am not allowed to put garbage out in plastic bags. Instead, they have to be placed in a plastic container (can't be metal) 12 hours prior to pick-up and removed within 8 hours after the garbage is taken away.

I find this whole thing to be insane. Driving through my neighborhood on garbage day, a majority of the households put garbage out in plastic bags and talking to several of my neighbors, all of them received a similar notice.

Now, I find something seriously wrong with all of this. We are not breaking any local, county or state laws because they are more than happy to take our garbage away in plastic bags AND if a majority of the homeowners do it this way, then what is the problem? I called up the board to complain and they told me that those are the rules established by the board and only a board member can propose a change. When I asked how one can become a board member, I was told that you have to be nominated by another board member.

I see this as a problem but never having lived under an association before, I'm not sure what to do about it. Can an association be dissolved (after all, I don't see any need for having one), and if so, what are the steps involved?

This is worse than fighting city hall because at least with city hall we have elected officials that we can turn to and not re-elect them if we are unhappy with them. However, with this board, the only people that we can vote for are people who are nominated by current board members (so, this year Mr. Jones nominates Mr. Smith and next year Mr. Smith nominates Mr. Jones).

If anyone has any ideas or suggests, I would be interested in hearing them. Moving out of the community is currently not an option as several new devlopments are still being built and if we sold the house now, it would be at a considerable loss. However, once everything is built, we're out of here but in the mean time I want to know if there are any steps that I can take right now to either dissolve the association or weaken it's powers? Any advise will be greatly appreciated. Regards,

FUD
fudeagle.gif

Share what you know, learn what you don't.
 
My POA pretty much leaves me alone. They believe me to be armed, crazy, and potentially violent.
(Third accusation is false. Second is arguable. First is fact! ;) )

I don't see how they can hold you to rules not yet in existence when you built your home unless they warned you beforehand of that possibilitiy OR your community voted them in.

You have a legal problem. Get a legal specialist - an Attorney-At-Law (preferably a mean one!). Get other members of your community to join you (to share expenses, blame, etc. and to reduce backbiting, etc.).

I'll bet many neighbors will encourage you but won't support you - even privately. That seems to be prevalent in such endeavors.
 
I would never live anywhere there is an "Association" specifically because of stuff like this. That said I'm not much for causing problems over trivial stuff, but "...can't display an American flag.." :mad:

I'm afraid I would willfully disobey that one. What loosers.
 
By-laws are normally posted in the public record at the courthouse so as to preclude "I didn't know about them." Since they are public record ignorance is no excuse. However, if you bought the house before the bylaws were published you might have a case. Go to the courthouse and pull a copy. See when they were posted. If it antedates your purchase you might consider talking to an attorney.
 
I'm not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV. That being said, I believe you have plenty of legal standing to sue the bastards if they try to take any action against you.

Let me ask a couple of questions, and then I may be able to help a little more.

Were you informed about the home owners association BEFORE or AFTER you closed on the house?

Did you make a deposit on the house prior to the start of construction? If so, were you informed of the presence of a home owners association at that time?

This whole thing stinks to high heaven. It's pure Nazi tactics. Conform, or we'll MAKE you conform. This totally flies in the face of personal property ownership, which is one of the primary foundations on which this nation was built. And it's becoming all too prevalent across the country.
 
Been there, done that. I will never again live in a neighborhood with an association.

You may find that the association meetings are not very well attended. It is possible to organize like minded folks, and flood the meetings with "your people". You could then motion, second, and vote in any rule change that pleases you and your group.

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"Pathfinders Light the Way!"
 
I am not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV, but I think the key issue is: Is there a covenant in your property deed that requires you to abide by the rules of the HOA?

If not, I think you've just got some busybodies with a rulebook that can be ignored.

If so, get involved in the HOA, fast. You can't afford not to do so. This is where liberal politicians spending Other People's Money (OPM) get started!

I'd get a real estate attorney to look at your deed.
 
When I put the initial 10% deposit on the house (before they even broke ground), I was told that the community would be governed by a home owners' association. When I asked to see a copy of the rules associated with this community, I was told that it was still being finalized and not publicly available.

I never lived in an association before so I really didn't know what to expect and it was explained to me that money would be collected to maintain common areas (a playground, an activity center, etc.) to keep the neighborhood nice.

When I closed on the house (more than 10 months later), I was handed the rules. I jokingly said to my wife during the closing that I wasn't sure if I wanted to live with all of these strict regulations and the lawyer for the builder (who, by the way, was building the entire community -- several town blocks) said that we had to close on the house as there were no "escape" provisions in the contract that we signed.

I thought about "willfully disobeying" and ignoring the $100.00 a day fine but the lien being placed against my property for unpaid fines made me re-think things.

I want to move (not because of the area or the house but because of this stupid association). However, since new homes are still being put up (and will be for another couple of years), I will not be able to get my purchase price back for the house since people will be able to buy a brand new home for the exact same money. Additionally, I've added another 10-15% of improvements to the house (screened-in porch, shatter-proof windows, folding hurricane shutters, etc.) which I would also not get back if I were to sell now. Of course, when the community is all built up and no more new homes are available, then moving becomes an option.
 
Well, I'm not a laywer either - but I live in a PUD with similar rules - but not 300 pages (or whatever).

If you can stomach the time delay (and the work) AND since you must be "nominated" by a board member (speaks of cronyism and might be the hole you can (legal-wise) crawl through) - then bite the bullet awhile, make "friends", volunteer for things to get known (they always need help) - smile a lot, and GET NOMINATED and on the board. Then "nominate" others. Once inside you have a better position to modify the "rules". Trouble is, you must know the rules, bylaws, etc. ... and the courthouse record is where you'll find the real words. Real estate attorney time! (But be sure where he/she comes from - you don't want somebody whose beholden to the builders, et al.) Plan the work - work the plan (and use the feedback to tune the effort).

I'm done. Sorry for your frustration, but thanks for letting me vent.

You know - you give sombody some authority and they just have to go out and push that authority ... change it if you can.

Best.
Andy
 
Strange, I started a "rebellion" in my neighborhood after we moved in because the Association would not enforce the deed restrictions.

After 2 years we now have an 80% majority on the board and all is doing well. I am the current Chairman if the Architectural Control Committee which enforces the deed restrictions.

I do agree that you need to get involved, recruit and change the rules to something more "reasonable and customary".

CMOS

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NRA? Good. Now join the GOA!

The NRA is our shield, the GOA will be our sword.
 
The first thing I'd do would be to fly my American flag from daylight to dark. Then I'd see who came by to protest, or if the Assoc. sent me a signed letter, I'd know who the enemy was. I'd demand in writing a letter explaining why those incredibly stupid "decorative flags" could be flown, but NOT the flag of our Nation?

If they persisted that the evil American flag could not be flwon, but "colorful, decorative" flags could, then I'd fly my 3'x5' Gadsden Flag, each and every day from dawn to dusk, and see what the muckheads said about that. (It's a "colorful" flag.)

Then, as soon as possible, I'd sell the house and move somewhere with no Marxist rules, such as your present location. J.B.
 
Jay, that's the thing. Nobody comes around to complain ... a letter (electronically signed by "the association") is sent out noting the days that "violations" occured on along with a bill ($100 a day) for the violation. If it is not paid within 30 days, a lien is placed against the property which means that it is taken out of the mortgage escrow account and if I don't pay that, then I'm in default of the mortgage and could lose my house.

I can't wait until the rest of the new homes are finished so that I can move. Any computer companies or consulting jobs in Vermont?
 
Take over the Association. Next election cycle, get as many proxies as you can. Pick a simple issue like the association spending too much money, not providing a service or raising dues. Ask you nearby neighbors for their support on the issue. Ask if they are attending the meeting. If they aren't, tell them you need their proxy to make sure their wishes are heeded.

Out of 75 households in our association, only 5 bothered to come to the meeting. We showed up with 4 proxies and owned the night.

Given enough proxies, you and your wife can take over the association. Get a few folks on your side, get them on the board too.

Most people are too disinterested and are sheeple. A strong person can easily lead the board. My wife ran our board for 2 years and rammed through more than rest of the boards have in 5 years.

[This message has been edited by fight4yourrights (edited June 14, 2000).]
 
Seeing as you are "stuck" for the time being, I suggest following the takeover route. If you have to be a part of it, why not be in charge? Then you can help keep the busybodies off the backs of everyone else as well.

Fighting them in other ways could get a tad expensive, I'm afraid.

(Filing this away for my own future reference so I NEVER live in such a community.)
 
fight4yourrights...

That is exactly the make-up of these associations. They are typically run by a dictatorship type coup of Gladys Kravits types who have nothing better to do than bust other people's nuts.

If your idea of taking over the association fails...try sabotage. You were looking for a use for those night vision goggles weren't you? Phone lines, flower beds, weed killer, and gasoline all come to mind.

Oh and, if you didn't sign a contract that specifically included your home in the Marxist association, it doesn't apply to you. You have to consent to it. Read the fine print.
 
Start flying the CSA battle flag.
Then when they bitch start with the
Chicom flag.

[This message has been edited by Grin&Barrett (edited June 14, 2000).]
 
You haven't even tried democracy yet. Isn't it a little early for a rebellion? Try becoming active in the homeowner's association. You should think of it as a little government, but it is probably a whole lot more responsive to your wishes and votes than Congress is.

If you're really upset, well, see a lawyer, but I'll bet the title to your house says that the property is subject to the covenants and restrictions of the association. I'll also bet it's in your paperwork somewhere if you'll look hard enough.
 
I'm in the Title Business and I'll guarantee it's in the paperwork you signed. The only way out that you might have is if the verbage in the paperwork says , "AS RECORDED" and that at the time of signing there was no Documents recorded. I like the take over the commitee idea better. Now your best bet would be to have a lawyer look into the wording and see if there is a loophole. I actually doubt there was any "No way out" clause at the time of signing but I bet you would have lost your deposit.
Of course I think the american flag would fall under a freedom of speech ruling esp. since they allow other flags.
 
Become active, that would be the 1st thing.

Get on the board and take the teeth out of the HOA, the fines should fit the offense.
Make community service available to remove fines etc. Disallow liens on property, except for the most serious offenses. Make it mandatory to fly the flag on national holidays,liberalize the garbage rules.

Waterdog
 
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