Questions from HelgeS, part 2.

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Helges:

You are missing the point on our bill of rights, including the 2nd. Most of these are natural rights. They were not given to us by the government. We were born with them. The bill of rights is a warning to the government that we the people retain these rights. That they would exist even if forbidden by a written constitution. When we entered into society we delegated certain rights to government so that other rights could be protected. We did not delegate these rights, but retained them. Our constitution is based upon this principal. The only powers that our government has are those that we delegated to them by the written constitution. All other rights and powers we retained to ourselves.

“The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.” Article X, U.S. Constitution.

“The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.” Article IX, U.S. Constitution

Our founders felt it important enough to remind everyone that the government only has those powers delegated to it that they expounded those sediments in two separate articles. Net effect is, if it ain’t in the Constitution, they can’t do it.

Later,




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Richard

The debate is not about guns,
but rather who has the ultimate power to rule,
the People or Government.
RKBA!
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>YES, I firmly believe that the vast majority of human beings are NOT capable of making "the right decisions all the time".[/quote]

HelgeS, HelgeS, HelgeS.

Tsk, tsk. I take it you're not among that "vast majority" incapable of thinking for themselves? How, exactly, would you classify yourself?

I already know how I'd classify myself--I don't have much sense, but I've got friends who went to school. AND I own guns. Lots of guns.

Free your mind, HelgeS. I think that the Matrix has you.
 
Helge,

The difficulty you have understanding us is that you were educated with a socialist-elitist philosophy. Virtually every Philosophy professor that I have encountered is a socialist. These Phd's engaged in endless mental masturbation, and without exception, thought they knew (better than the ignorant masses of people) how to run a just and fair society.

You don't seem to understand the concept of "inalienable rights". Do some reading.

Your latest questions center on the concept of "need". Why do you need rifles, shotguns, etc.? This reminds me of the Marxist phrase: "From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs."

I do not, and will not, let you, nor anyone else for that matter, determine for me "what I need". That is for me, and me alone to determine. My wants and needs are none of your d*mn business.

Regarding your statement that there is virtually no middle class in the US. That is just DEAD WRONG! I have found no statistical evidence to support your empty claim. The US has the largest most prosperous middle class in the world. Where do you get such ignorant information? You state that you visited some people in the US and that you found their living situation less than desirable. You are using faulty reasoning to come to your conclusions about the rest of the US population. You extrapolate from a few isolated examples and come to the determination that the rest of the US is the same! Get real!

The US is the most dominant country in the world in virtually everything. Music, fashion, art, cinema, sports, computer software and hardware, scientific research, biotech, pharmaceutical (90% of all new drugs or meds), communications, satellite tech, stock market, etc. I was in Europe recently (as opposed to twenty years ago), and I couldn't believe how much European kids were like US kids (thank MTV). They dressed the same, ate the same fast food, listened to the same rap or rock music, played US invented sports (basketball, volleyball) and saw the same US movies. Maybe the French are correct when they complain of US "cultural imperialism". Heck, the socialists (yes, the socialists!) in Germany just passed substantial tax cuts to help the economy in Germany. They seem to have learned something from "ignorant americans" and market stimulus. Even the socialists have learned to recognize (Gerhard Schroeder, Tony Blair) that you need hardworking wealth-creating capitalists to pay for your idiotic social programs. After all, someone has to foot the bill.
 
To Buzz-Knox:

I think most people have gotten wise to the troll baiting of the American gun owner, but there is a certain type of intellect that likes to flex their intellectual muscle and sound off against anothers tirade of mental flexing. This is quite delusional in its 2 dimensional form, as nothing changes either sides view point...but the moderators are having fun so let "em.

Jim
 
Brady,

Thank you.

I don't mind debating this. It sharpens the whit and clarifies the argument. As Lawdog has said, it's more for the lurkers. (but it's for me as well! :D )



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John/az
"When freedom is at stake, your silence is not golden, it's yellow..." RKBA!
www.cphv.com
 
I thought I made that clear above in simple words: I do not consider myself capable of making those decisions either.

I do for sure consider myself intelligent. But that's not the issue. I have seen folks that can't count their own fingers but they have a lot of "common sense", something that is much more need to make decisions in the field of "wise usage of guns".

The middle class issue:

Try: http://www.burke.de/de/tools/demo13.htm

It gives you 3970DM per month in average in germany. That's 3970*13=51610DM net per year (13 because in germany you get 13 monthly salaries. 12 to get 1 every month and then an extra one in december to by christmas presents... no kidding... I know it sounds silly...). If you look at
http://www.census.gov/prod/99pubs/p60-206.pdf

then you find that the US household income is below that.

Same is confirmed at
www.un.org

where germany is 3000US$ ahead of the US in per capita GDP.

Then look at www.un.org again to find that together with Norway, Germany has the best social support system as evaluated by the united nations.

But, this is not a "we are better" contest. I lived in the US and I enjoyed most of it. Both countries/political systems have its benefits. Some things work better in the US, others work better in Germany.
All I want, is to get rid of the people who constantly get on my case here with nonsense like "german people oppressed by the government" or "in the US everybody is oh so much better off than in germany", etc.

cheers

Helge
 
"Then look at www.un.org again to find that together with Norway, Germany has the best social support system as evaluated by the united nations."

A fine example of damning with faint praise.



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Sam I am, grn egs n packin

Nikita Khrushchev predicted confidently in a speech in Bucharest, Rumania on June 19, 1962 that: " The United States will eventually fly the Communist Red Flag...the American people will hoist it themselves."
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>All I want, is to get rid of the people who constantly get on my case here with nonsense like "german people oppressed by the government" or "in the US everybody is oh so much better off than in germany", etc.[/quote]

HelgeS,

If TFL is causing you so much trouble, log off. Press the X button in the upper right hand corner of your screen. You will be instantly transported away from our dogmatic little forum.

And just what are you implying by the phrase "get rid of"?
 
Even if you take an intelligent person with all the knowledge required, as soon as the first bullet flies adrenalin takes over (for some folks testosteron takes over too...) and common sense is switched off. A very good training can overcome that. Untrained people seldom overcome it.

Ah, but do you know where the mind goes when "common sense is switched off"? Grossman studied this (in _On_Killing_) and found that all creatures, including humans, have a deeply embedded automatic reaction to NOT kill or seriously injure members of the species. Translation: when the time comes, most people are programmed to NOT harm other people - they may posture and threaten and run, but will not do anything to harm each other. Your fear that people will suddenly devolve into murderous beasts is in fact scientifically unsound. To the contrary, it generally requires intense training TO get people to intentionally kill (or attempt to) other people, even with "remote control" weapons like guns.

The military training you received was intended to overcome your normal, natural aversion to killing other people. Sure, some people do it without such training, but most of the time such actions are tightly coupled with either actions between criminals, are suicides, or are by real sociopaths; the gun-related killings of genuine innocents by "normal" people are rare.

Summary: normal people are genetically programmed to NOT harm/kill other people, and your fear of what happens when "common sense is switched off" is provably unfounded and reality is provably the opposite. To turn a normal person into a killer usually takes concerted training, NOT the automated cessation of "common sense".
 
OK, Helge, so you are completely enamored with the UN concept...so what?

You are from a culture that has been ruled for hundreds of years. You phenotypically (likely genotypically) conditioned to accept an "authority" that knows best how to run your life. We aren't. Further, you Euros need us, however we don't need you...hence your constant cajoling to accept the collective life.

Fine, for the moment accepting your German per capita income, so what, its smoke...its all taxed to the collective state.

Face it...your decadent culture has existed for a thousand years and you've screwed the pooch annually. You need more money to bolster up your collectivist psyches. You delude yourself that you are enlightened, yet you have a gov't( i.e. a collective of "stupid" people who somehow, as a group, grow intelligent enough to dictate how you all shall live. Whereas, we've existed for 230 yrs and are quite self-sufficient...and recently become infected with your decadent ideals.

If we are so unenlightened, selfish, and worthless then why not forget about us? Oh yeah, you need our money and labor for the world collective. Pshaw.


Lesse now..earlier you were a post-doc physicist in Canada, you've worn the blue hat in many conflicts, you have a degree in philosophy....if you are an average Deutscher, then forget about us inferior, vulgar and common Americans....we'll die off soon and you can institute the 5 or 6th incarnate of German superiority. Ya'll may be able to pull it off this time....or not :)

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"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes" RKBA!
 
Lawdog: Both stats were net income. Taxes and everything has already been taken care of. This does of course also mean that the german household has a complete health insurance, social insurance and unemployment insurance already included in the deal. Something the US household has to pay a lot more money for (or not get it).

ctdonath: That's an interesting point. I am pretty sure that it is a correct theory too. I have studied a bunch of theorists who claim that in an actual combat engagement only 15% of the soldiers actually fire shots, the rest is just hiding somewhere and praying for it to end. Those theorists got a lot of fire from various veteran groups, but from my personal experience I am inclined believe them.
I am actually predominantly interested in two key issues that training could solve:

- gun accidents
- gun aggression

the first one is easy to see. If everybody is trained to use a gun then gun accidents should happen much less.
The other one, well, with gun aggression I mean the kind of scenario where a bar brawl suddenly turns bloody because somebody brings gun into the game. People seem to get bolder if they have a gun with them (or any other weapon for that matter).


DC: Look at the course of the argument:
Helge: "US has a poor middle class"
TFLer: "No, all wrong, no facts!!!"
Helge: "Here are the facts"
DC: "blah... UN concept... blah blah... insults over insults... blah blah"

Would a "Oh ok, I guess I got that wrong. Sorry Helge, next time I check the facts before I open my mouth" be more adequat? This has happened 5 times now. I postulate something, somebody calls it a lie, I present the facts that clearly validate my claim, somebody counters with insults and other such childish responses. On the other hand, in one incident (the slave/native genocide) I postulated a number, somebody kindly showed me a reference that proved me wrong, I admitted my mistake and apologized.

Do you see the difference? It is the difference between childish bitching and adult discussion. Would you mind trying to adapt your postings so that they are more in the adult discussion category? Thanks.

Just a few quickies as response:

- Both groups (north america and europe) needs each other. I am not quite sure how you derive that the US does not need the european union. Both groups are economically so completely entangled that a division would be fatal for both.

- the income is net, not brutto. Thus, nothing of it will be "taxed away" by anybody.

- either my country exists for 50 years and yours for 230 years or my culture existed for 1200 years and yours for 510 years... I don't really see why that matters though...

- my life is indeed typical, if certainly not common, for a german. German Highschool gives everybody the equivalent of a US college degree, then mandatory military service (extend in my and many other cases) gives the military career. Then university (rather common in germany... we have more students per "normal" people than any other place on earth... A lit bit more students than the US has students and that despite the fact that the US has 3 times as many inhabitants. Mostly this is because education up to a post doc degree is free in germany and the students get room and board. We have a "right" to be educated in the constitution...). Then major in physics and philosophy (a rather common combined degree in germany, derived from the greek and renaissance idea of the "natural philosopher" which later spawned the "scientist"). Finally an overall desire to see as many places as possible (another "germanic" trait... for some reason germans spend more money on travelling per head than any other country in the world)

cheers

Helge
 
Poor, Dear Helge,
___________
I am happy that the government requires me to make those free speeches such that they do not infringe on the rights of others.
-------------
I have frequently thought that those who believe the world should be protected from themselves are probably correct.

Helge, I am very sorry you feel the need to have a group of people (gov.) telling you what you may say, do and possess. Perhaps you miss the fact that they do so at the point of a gun, but how else do you think laws are enforced?

If it gives you a warm fuzzy feeling to be managed and controlled in all aspects of your existence then I do hope you live in one of those nice smiling friendly police states in northern Europe. If so, please stay there. If you are so unfortunate as to live in the United States, perhaps you can apply to become a Ward of the Court so as to not be bothered with those pesky rights and choices.

However, don't mess with free people. We are individualists who would rather bump our heads than be forced to duck. I am sure this sounds as insane and irresponsible to you as your way sounds to us.

Goodbye, Helge.

Bentley,

"Few men desire liberty; most men wish only for a just master."
-- Sallust - (Roman historian - c. 40 B.C.)

"Government is an association of men who do violence to the rest of us."
-- Leo Tolstoy - "The Kingdom of God is Within You" (1893)


"There are two kinds of people in this world: those with guns and those who dig. Dig!"
-- Clint Eastwood to Tuco in 'The Good, The Bad and The Ugly'.

[This message has been edited by ICBentley (edited July 28, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by ICBentley (edited July 28, 2000).]
 
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