Question Posed To Me About Gun Control
- Thread starter Mosin-Marauder
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My own very small and unscientific survey of unincarcerated felons told me that they had or could have access to firearms despite laws designed to keep them from possessing weapons. They generally thought that tighter firearms laws just made their "job" (the criminal act for which they were imprisoned) easier and safer for them. They also said they were inclined to avoid homes where they knew firearms were owned (unless the homeowners were gone).
My brother in law is felon, not a violent one but one for reasons touching on repeat offender (drunk driving) or some such. The very few conversations I have had with him lead me to believe that he gives no thought whatsoever to firearms, laws or even governance of said objects. I think this is relevant because it gives rise to the idea that most criminals lack a proper education and therefore don't give any thought to the laws that govern them (the criminal) insofar as those laws will dictate the amount of trouble they will be in for committing certain crimes.
Basically, I don't think criminals say to themselves "I wish we had greater gun control laws because it would make my sheep easier to fleece." I think we give them too much credit if we do. That shows a forethought with a higher ability to reason and plan. I think most criminals lack that mental capacity. Which is why they are in trouble in the first place.
Basically, I don't think criminals say to themselves "I wish we had greater gun control laws because it would make my sheep easier to fleece." I think we give them too much credit if we do. That shows a forethought with a higher ability to reason and plan. I think most criminals lack that mental capacity. Which is why they are in trouble in the first place.
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Frank Ettin
Administrator
Except that view is, at least to some extent, contradicted by the Wright and Rossi study (see posts 9 and 13). Among other things, Wright and Rossi found that:Ruger480 said:
Hi Frank,
Your quote only says that criminals worry about being shot by an armed victim. It says nothing about the criminal considering a way to disarm that victim. Let alone using gun control legislation to accomplish it. That was my point. In order to credit them with that logic, one would have to make the assumption that the criminal would reason out that if gun control legislation were more restrictive, their likely of getting shot during a crime would be reduced.
I don't believe criminals possess that kind of reasoning. If they did, they would work on Wall Street instead of committing violent crimes.
Your quote only says that criminals worry about being shot by an armed victim. It says nothing about the criminal considering a way to disarm that victim. Let alone using gun control legislation to accomplish it. That was my point. In order to credit them with that logic, one would have to make the assumption that the criminal would reason out that if gun control legislation were more restrictive, their likely of getting shot during a crime would be reduced.
I don't believe criminals possess that kind of reasoning. If they did, they would work on Wall Street instead of committing violent crimes.
Frank Ettin
Administrator
But that's a far too narrow view of the discussion.Ruger480 said:
The point is that we have good reason to believe that criminals would like to see their potential victims unarmed. Why or how he is disarmed is beside the point.
Check Britain or Australia's current crime rates - "prisoners" out in the public adore gun registration and confiscation, it makes their efforts so much easier.
Documented and proven. Really a moot point. Those predisposed to acting violently against other humans don't want them to get the upper hand ever. But they don't care about the law, will get guns, and do use them against US.
Your English teacher needs to be intellectually and historically honest about that fact - but most aren't, because of the protected and privileged life they lead. It goes right down to their specially reserved parking space in a separate location from the general riff raff of life. Their special entrances, keys, office spaces, and lounges. Along with the pay, which allows them to further insulate themselves from the mass of society.
They create their own green zones around themselves in gated communities or simply congregating in neighborhoods where only others of their socio economic status will live. They eat in more upscale locations, socialize in separate but equal accommodations, fly instead of taking the bus or traveling by car (flying has deteriorated considerably under the current regime.)
If they lived in a multistory building close to campus and walked in all kinds of weather to their job, they might have a completely different view on protecting themselves in public and why they need to be armed. But - they don't, and that alone is acknowledgement they are more than aware of the issues.
If you make that much effort to live a protected life, it's not just a lifestyle choice, it's about security against the chance of assault. If they didn't care then they would live wherever. It would be obvious with even a casual observation of their life they want nothing to do with the common people tho, because they are risk adverse and don't know any better way to handle it.
Swim with the sharks, tho, and you quickly learn how to impress them with your abilities, or avoid them in your convenience. They are out there anyway. You ARE going to have to deal with it one way or the other.
Some find it's just easier to carry a gun and it handles the once in a lifetime situation. Others restrict their lives and interaction so much they don't have a life - and by trading off their freedom, have the little security they get.
Feel free to use anything in this post in a written effort to address the teachers concerns. They should be - because they only feign any real concern about it, rather like those who donate money to a disaster while looking down at it from their protected vantage point. Going out into the street to help isn't what they are about. Imposing their selfish conclusions on others is.
Documented and proven. Really a moot point. Those predisposed to acting violently against other humans don't want them to get the upper hand ever. But they don't care about the law, will get guns, and do use them against US.
Your English teacher needs to be intellectually and historically honest about that fact - but most aren't, because of the protected and privileged life they lead. It goes right down to their specially reserved parking space in a separate location from the general riff raff of life. Their special entrances, keys, office spaces, and lounges. Along with the pay, which allows them to further insulate themselves from the mass of society.
They create their own green zones around themselves in gated communities or simply congregating in neighborhoods where only others of their socio economic status will live. They eat in more upscale locations, socialize in separate but equal accommodations, fly instead of taking the bus or traveling by car (flying has deteriorated considerably under the current regime.)
If they lived in a multistory building close to campus and walked in all kinds of weather to their job, they might have a completely different view on protecting themselves in public and why they need to be armed. But - they don't, and that alone is acknowledgement they are more than aware of the issues.
If you make that much effort to live a protected life, it's not just a lifestyle choice, it's about security against the chance of assault. If they didn't care then they would live wherever. It would be obvious with even a casual observation of their life they want nothing to do with the common people tho, because they are risk adverse and don't know any better way to handle it.
Swim with the sharks, tho, and you quickly learn how to impress them with your abilities, or avoid them in your convenience. They are out there anyway. You ARE going to have to deal with it one way or the other.
Some find it's just easier to carry a gun and it handles the once in a lifetime situation. Others restrict their lives and interaction so much they don't have a life - and by trading off their freedom, have the little security they get.
Feel free to use anything in this post in a written effort to address the teachers concerns. They should be - because they only feign any real concern about it, rather like those who donate money to a disaster while looking down at it from their protected vantage point. Going out into the street to help isn't what they are about. Imposing their selfish conclusions on others is.
Frank Ettin
Administrator
Documentation and proof are never moot. And without evidence to back them up, one's opinions are hollow tales, "full of sound and fury, signifying nothing."tirod said:
This is a very odd question, isn't it. What is a prisoner; what are the conditions of prison? A prisoner is a convicted felon who is being punished by having his rights, including right to freedom, taken away. The conditions of prison make is such that some prisoners might want guns while others might be perfectly content for all of the convicted felons not to have guns. It sort of depends, doesn't it, on the individual being questioned. I would therefore assume that a prisoner's opinion on gun control (albeit irrelevant to any sane discussion) would depend on the particular prisoner being questioned. Further ask: "would a punkish felon who has been raped and abused in prison want to have a gun, or want others in prison to have a gun?"; What about the skinhead leader, or other gang leaders in prison - would they want everyone to have a gun? Who knows and what does it really matter?
A gun store owner's opinion on gun control would likely amount to a lengthy, detailed explanation of how much red tape, legal regulation, and bureaucratic scrutiny he must already comply with - all of which already falls under the topic of "gun control". And, as to individual owners, their knowledge of the myriad of laws and regulations already controlling the purchase, ownership and use of guns will range from very little to extremely knowledgeable.
You can perhaps see how the question posed by the teacher is a bad question. By bad, I mean that it is not well thought out. It seems contrived to lead to irrelevant and factless discussions on whether or not additional gun laws are needed. So, before I would even attempt to answer the question, I would first define it as I did above. Once that's done, it comes much more into focus that some parts of the question are senseless to address without making further assumptions.
P.S: I understand that many who are attempting to answer the question are assuming that prisoners are giving their opinion as to gun control outside of prison - as if some day they will be back out of prison possibly committing crimes. I point out that the question doesn't specify this - another reason it's a bad question which requires more assumptions to be made.
Back to the fact that the OP did not know how to respond to the question. I can't blame him. How do you think your teacher would respond to the following question:
What do you think serial killers believe need to be done to improve the quality of education in our country as compared to the opinion of a teacher or student?
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Frank Ettin
Administrator
Actually in the Wright/Rossi study alluded to several times in this thread the questions were asked of actual prisoners, i. e., people actually in prison at the time.Skans said:
But also, if we look at the question, as many here have done, as a rather inartful way of asking what criminals, whether or not behind bars at the moment, think about private citizens of the "victim class" having guns, it becomes a very interesting and useful question.
And the fact that we, as advocates for the RKBA, have an actual, academic study providing evidence that criminals would prefer that their victim pool be unarmed helps us. It helps support our preference for seeing honest people have access to arms.
I think you miss my point. Prisoners are in prison, presumably for a long time; in some cases a very long time (not to be confused with county jail). The question does not say anything about WHO is/would be affected by more gun control. So, either the question is referring to the prisoners themselves - yes, while they are in prison; or outsiders. Prisoners are in fact personally affected by gun control laws while they are doing time inside of a prison.
So, looking at the 4-corners of the question posed, it makes more sense to ask prisoners "do you think prisons should exert more or less control over who may have gun(s) in prison?" It makes no sense to ask prisoners whether more or less gun control laws are good for those outside of prison. You might as well be asking a group of sociopaths and psychopaths if more or less gun control laws are good for those people residing in South Kalimantan, Indonesia. You will get all kinds of crazy answers which will be far more telling about the individuals answering them, than gain any information providing any real insight as to what is good/bad for the people of South Kalimantan.
Why not simply take a poll of former (meaning released back into society) convicted burglars, car-jackers and armed robbers asking them whether criminals prefer to commit crimes where there are more or less restrictive laws on gun ownership, carrying and use. Is that what the OP's question is asking in part?
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stonewall50
New member
I was actually a teacher for a little bit. So first bit of advice: evidence and support. ALWAYS use evidence to support your views. But the big thing is that a criminal is not allowed to purchase a firearm by law. If I were you I would also delve into why someone is a criminal and what the consequences are in the U.S. For violating laws (and as a side note mention that while they may be stiff penalties...they don't face those penalties in reality).
The short answer? Why would the criminal care? By nature to them the law is irrelevant. It is way more important for the store owner. But evidence and support
Ignore the teacher's apparent bias.
The question itself screams for clarification.
Prisoner: what type? What crime? What age? What background? Where is the prisoner going to live when (if?) he exits incarceration?
You will probably have to do a lot of research on recidivism to try to get an idea. Otherwise, you're making crap up and that defeats the goal (or is this a creative writing project?)
Gun owner: what type of firearm? What age? Where do they keep it (as an indication of expected use)? Military background? Hunter? Inherited piece?
Gun store owner: Here we go again...
I expect that your teacher wants you to draw some comparison of "expectation" for each party. The prisoner might wish he had a gun to break out or might be considering acquiring a firearm for self-defense after he exits prison legally.
The gun owner sees gun availability as a market problem with legal loopholes to be followed.
The gun store owner perhaps sees guns as a business opportunity more than a hobby.
However, to refrain from "creating your own monster" you would have to do a crap ton of research to begin.
Sorry for not being more helpful.
The question itself screams for clarification.
Prisoner: what type? What crime? What age? What background? Where is the prisoner going to live when (if?) he exits incarceration?
You will probably have to do a lot of research on recidivism to try to get an idea. Otherwise, you're making crap up and that defeats the goal (or is this a creative writing project?)
Gun owner: what type of firearm? What age? Where do they keep it (as an indication of expected use)? Military background? Hunter? Inherited piece?
Gun store owner: Here we go again...
I expect that your teacher wants you to draw some comparison of "expectation" for each party. The prisoner might wish he had a gun to break out or might be considering acquiring a firearm for self-defense after he exits prison legally.
The gun owner sees gun availability as a market problem with legal loopholes to be followed.
The gun store owner perhaps sees guns as a business opportunity more than a hobby.
However, to refrain from "creating your own monster" you would have to do a crap ton of research to begin.
Sorry for not being more helpful.