Big Caliber
New member
Do you need to re-quailfy with your sidearm every so often? What then is the range to target for semi-autos? for revolvers? Thanks.
Question for LEOs...
- Thread starter Big Caliber
- Start date
It varies depending on the state and the agency. Municipal, county and state agencies usually have to meet state-mandated requirements. Federal agencies are not bound by those policies.
In my state, the mandated requirement is two (2) daytime qualifications a year with any issued weapon (pistol, shotgun and/or rifle) and one night-time qualification with the same. The daytime quals are usually about 6 months apart. For off-duty weapons, one (1) daytime and one (1) night-time qual. per year.
The course of fire for issued handgun is a 50 round course involving one-hand, weak-hand, two hand, kneeling, prone and barricade at distances beginning at 3 yards, progressing to 7, then 10, then 15, then 25.
The off-duty course is a modified 30 round course and can be difficult with mouse guns.
The state considers a minimum score of 70 to be passing. My agency considered 80 to be a passing score.
In my state, the mandated requirement is two (2) daytime qualifications a year with any issued weapon (pistol, shotgun and/or rifle) and one night-time qualification with the same. The daytime quals are usually about 6 months apart. For off-duty weapons, one (1) daytime and one (1) night-time qual. per year.
The course of fire for issued handgun is a 50 round course involving one-hand, weak-hand, two hand, kneeling, prone and barricade at distances beginning at 3 yards, progressing to 7, then 10, then 15, then 25.
The off-duty course is a modified 30 round course and can be difficult with mouse guns.
The state considers a minimum score of 70 to be passing. My agency considered 80 to be a passing score.
It varies by department or agency
In my mis-spent youth the Border Patrol qualification course was 72 rounds.
Thirty rounds on a bullseye target at 25 yards. 10 slow fire, 10 timed fire and 10 rapid fire. Then forty-two rounds on a combat course adapted from the PPC course of fire. Started with six rounds at 7 yards and ended with 12 rounds at 50 yards.
We qualified once a quarter, four times a year.
The old Customs Service had a 60 round course all on a 'combat' target, from three to twenty-five yards. The course demanded strong hand, weak hand, Mozambique drill, double taps and so forth. At least one reload under time. Again, this was once a quarter.
When Customs switched over to autopistols, the course was changed to a 30 round course and the 25 yard range was dropped. Most of the same elements as the old course. However, the cycle was changed to three times a year.
Way back when in the Marine Corps, one only had to qualify once a year with rifle or pistol. But we usually had a week of practice prior to qual day.
In my mis-spent youth the Border Patrol qualification course was 72 rounds.
Thirty rounds on a bullseye target at 25 yards. 10 slow fire, 10 timed fire and 10 rapid fire. Then forty-two rounds on a combat course adapted from the PPC course of fire. Started with six rounds at 7 yards and ended with 12 rounds at 50 yards.
We qualified once a quarter, four times a year.
The old Customs Service had a 60 round course all on a 'combat' target, from three to twenty-five yards. The course demanded strong hand, weak hand, Mozambique drill, double taps and so forth. At least one reload under time. Again, this was once a quarter.
When Customs switched over to autopistols, the course was changed to a 30 round course and the 25 yard range was dropped. Most of the same elements as the old course. However, the cycle was changed to three times a year.
Way back when in the Marine Corps, one only had to qualify once a year with rifle or pistol. But we usually had a week of practice prior to qual day.
UtahHunting
New member
We have to re-qualify twice per year. Qualification includes 50 rounds through the handgun from 3 feet to 25 yards. We also have to qualify with 2 rounds of slugs, 8 rounds of buckshot, and 2 beanbags through the shotgun. And ready for this......10 rounds through the assault rifle at 25 yards.
One other thing.....when going through the academy we shot over 1500 rounds of handgun, 300 rounds of shotgun, and over 100 rounds in the rifle. But to re-qualify we just have to do what I stated above.
One other thing.....when going through the academy we shot over 1500 rounds of handgun, 300 rounds of shotgun, and over 100 rounds in the rifle. But to re-qualify we just have to do what I stated above.
I'm retired from Louisiana. Here is their information. Yearly qualification is required. Revolvers and auto go through the same course, although there are very few revolvers remaining.
The course is listed here Louisiana POST Firearms Qualification Course
OFFICIAL POST FIREARMS COURSE
Effective (1/1/09)
A. STAGES OF FIRE
STAGE I - 25 yards
6 rounds standing, strong side barricade, strong-hand, 6 rounds standing, barricade, strong hand or off hand, off-side….Time Limit: 60 seconds
STAGE I - TRAINING CONSIDERATIONS:
A) The weapon must never contact the barricade; the hands may brace against the barricade.
B) It is possible for the shooter to align the sights on the target and still shoot the barricade. Be sure the muzzle clears the barricade.
C) Shooters are required to fire from the offside of the barricade using the barricade for cover. Use of the strong or off-hand is optional.
Stage I stresses the basics, including the barricade position and the use of cover. It also stresses to seek cover, in that the shooter starts out from behind cover and moves to cover. Studies show officers fail to use available cover two-thirds of the time, unless trained to take cover. To keep the course uniform the distance for cover will not exceed 5 yards. Also, shooter will move up to cover before drawing. One important element in the use of deadly force is verbal warning, if there is time. To accomplish this, on the first string at (25 yards), after shooter has drawn and is covering the target, the shooter will shout "Police, Don't Move". The shooter is advised to assume that the person has put him (the officer) in immediate danger and fires the string.
STAGE II – *15 yards
3 rounds right side low barricade kneeling position
3 rounds left side low barricade kneeling position
(35 seconds for outdoor range)
(30 seconds for indoor range with no move(30 seconds for indoor range with no movement from 25-yard line to 15-yard line)
NOTE: *Movement from 25 yards to 15 yards.
STAGE II - TRAINING CONSIDERATIONS:
A) Movement to the 15-yard line from the 25-yard line. Moving time is included in the 35 seconds for outdoor ranges.
B) Once the officer gets to the 15-yard line, the weapon will be drawn and assume cover or simulated cover if no barricade is used.
C) All rounds will be fired from the kneeling position.
D) Officer may use either strong hand or off hand.
STAGE III - 7 yards
Phase I 6 rounds strong hand only from holster (10 seconds)
Phase II 6 rounds off-hand only from ready gun (10 seconds)
Phase III *6 rounds standing, 6 rounds kneeling – reload while kneeling (25 seconds)
*NOTE: Mandatory reloading for all weapons during Phase III.
STAGE III - TRAINING CONSIDERATIONS:
A) The muzzle must be forward of the shooter's leg before the knee touches the ground. The shooter will be cautioned not to "crash" to his knees to avoid injury. The muzzle must never cross the shooter's leg.
B) In Phase II the shooter will, on command, draw his weapon and come to normal, two-hand grip in the ready gun position. Then on command, shooter transfers handgun to the off hand and fires.
C) The shooter must ensure a secure grip on the weapon with the off hand before raising the weapon up to target at Stage III.
Phase I requires shooting with the strong hand only. This stage of fire is designed to test basic marksmanship fundamentals using the strong hand only. The most likely application of strong hand shooting is in the event that the off hand is incapacitated or occupied. The shooter starts with a holstered weapon.
Phase II requires shooting with the off hand only. A review of law enforcement situations indicates that few officers fire with the off hand in an actual confrontation. This stage of fire is designed to test basic marksmanship fundamentals using the off hand only. The most likely application of off-hand shooting is in the event that the strong hand is incapacitated or occupied. The shooter starts from ready gun position. On command shooter transfers weapon to off hand and fires using quick sight alignment.
In Phase III there is a mandatory reloading of all weapons. Law enforcement statistics show that officers seldom fire, reload, and continue the confrontations. Most confrontations involve fewer than 6 rounds and less than 4 seconds. However, every situation has the potential to go beyond the typical law enforcement engagement. Shooters must be familiar enough with their weapons and equipment to maintain continuity of fire. To do this the shooter must be able to reload under pressure. Instructors should emphasize that it is not a good tactic to stand up, out from behind cover, shoot, reload and shoot again. The emphasis is on reloading under stress and hitting center mass. All reloading will be done in the kneeling position. The kneeling position can be used as both a supported or unsupported position or to utilize available cover or just to make you a smaller target. The kneeling position is the most versatile, stable position due to its simplicity and the speed with which it can be acquired. Requiring the shooter to draw and assume the kneeling position and to fire under time constraints, trains and tests manipulation skills as well as quick sight shooting skills.
STAGE IV - 4 yards
Phase I 3 rounds, one or two hands (3 seconds)
(2 shots to body mass and 1 shot to head)
Instinct shooting technique from holster with one step to the right AFTER rounds are fired. Ready gun and return to original position. Repeat once and holster.
Phase II 3 rounds, one or two hands (3 seconds)
(2 shots to body mass and 1 shot to head)
Instinct shooting technique from holster with one step to the left AFTER rounds are fired. Ready gun and return to original position. Repeat once and holster.
STAGE IV - TRAINING CONSIDERATIONS:
A) For double action semi-automatics pistols, the weapon should be decocked when the shooter lowers weapon to ready gun position after firing first 3 rounds at Stage IV.
B) Movement to the right/left should be immediately after rounds are fired.
Stage IV reinforces the basic techniques required for officer survival in the event of a failed incapacitation. In addition, it covers use of the weapon from the ready-gun position. The ready-gun position is used during high-risk searching and when challenging a dangerous subject. In the ready-gun position, the weapon will be lowered to approximately waist level, with the barrel pointed toward the target.
STAGE V - 2 yard
2 rounds - One or two hands (2 seconds
Close quarter shooting position from holster with one full step to the rear
Repeat twice
STAGE V - TRAINING CONSIDERATIONS:
A) Upon completion of each string of fire, shooter waits for instructor's command to move back to two-yard line.
B) Shooter must holster weapon after each string of fire.
This stage covers the most basic techniques of handgun training--the ability to respond to a sudden, close-range confrontation under realistic time constraints. The shooter is to take one step to the rear to create distance. Shooter should be stepping and drawing at the same time. The shooter has the option of using the one or two-hand, close-quarter shooting position or the extended hip shooting position. However, it must be mentioned that the off-hand at this distance might be occupied, defending or restraining a subject. Probably, if given a choice, shooter will use two hands.
The course is listed here Louisiana POST Firearms Qualification Course
OFFICIAL POST FIREARMS COURSE
Effective (1/1/09)
A. STAGES OF FIRE
STAGE I - 25 yards
6 rounds standing, strong side barricade, strong-hand, 6 rounds standing, barricade, strong hand or off hand, off-side….Time Limit: 60 seconds
STAGE I - TRAINING CONSIDERATIONS:
A) The weapon must never contact the barricade; the hands may brace against the barricade.
B) It is possible for the shooter to align the sights on the target and still shoot the barricade. Be sure the muzzle clears the barricade.
C) Shooters are required to fire from the offside of the barricade using the barricade for cover. Use of the strong or off-hand is optional.
Stage I stresses the basics, including the barricade position and the use of cover. It also stresses to seek cover, in that the shooter starts out from behind cover and moves to cover. Studies show officers fail to use available cover two-thirds of the time, unless trained to take cover. To keep the course uniform the distance for cover will not exceed 5 yards. Also, shooter will move up to cover before drawing. One important element in the use of deadly force is verbal warning, if there is time. To accomplish this, on the first string at (25 yards), after shooter has drawn and is covering the target, the shooter will shout "Police, Don't Move". The shooter is advised to assume that the person has put him (the officer) in immediate danger and fires the string.
STAGE II – *15 yards
3 rounds right side low barricade kneeling position
3 rounds left side low barricade kneeling position
(35 seconds for outdoor range)
(30 seconds for indoor range with no move(30 seconds for indoor range with no movement from 25-yard line to 15-yard line)
NOTE: *Movement from 25 yards to 15 yards.
STAGE II - TRAINING CONSIDERATIONS:
A) Movement to the 15-yard line from the 25-yard line. Moving time is included in the 35 seconds for outdoor ranges.
B) Once the officer gets to the 15-yard line, the weapon will be drawn and assume cover or simulated cover if no barricade is used.
C) All rounds will be fired from the kneeling position.
D) Officer may use either strong hand or off hand.
STAGE III - 7 yards
Phase I 6 rounds strong hand only from holster (10 seconds)
Phase II 6 rounds off-hand only from ready gun (10 seconds)
Phase III *6 rounds standing, 6 rounds kneeling – reload while kneeling (25 seconds)
*NOTE: Mandatory reloading for all weapons during Phase III.
STAGE III - TRAINING CONSIDERATIONS:
A) The muzzle must be forward of the shooter's leg before the knee touches the ground. The shooter will be cautioned not to "crash" to his knees to avoid injury. The muzzle must never cross the shooter's leg.
B) In Phase II the shooter will, on command, draw his weapon and come to normal, two-hand grip in the ready gun position. Then on command, shooter transfers handgun to the off hand and fires.
C) The shooter must ensure a secure grip on the weapon with the off hand before raising the weapon up to target at Stage III.
Phase I requires shooting with the strong hand only. This stage of fire is designed to test basic marksmanship fundamentals using the strong hand only. The most likely application of strong hand shooting is in the event that the off hand is incapacitated or occupied. The shooter starts with a holstered weapon.
Phase II requires shooting with the off hand only. A review of law enforcement situations indicates that few officers fire with the off hand in an actual confrontation. This stage of fire is designed to test basic marksmanship fundamentals using the off hand only. The most likely application of off-hand shooting is in the event that the strong hand is incapacitated or occupied. The shooter starts from ready gun position. On command shooter transfers weapon to off hand and fires using quick sight alignment.
In Phase III there is a mandatory reloading of all weapons. Law enforcement statistics show that officers seldom fire, reload, and continue the confrontations. Most confrontations involve fewer than 6 rounds and less than 4 seconds. However, every situation has the potential to go beyond the typical law enforcement engagement. Shooters must be familiar enough with their weapons and equipment to maintain continuity of fire. To do this the shooter must be able to reload under pressure. Instructors should emphasize that it is not a good tactic to stand up, out from behind cover, shoot, reload and shoot again. The emphasis is on reloading under stress and hitting center mass. All reloading will be done in the kneeling position. The kneeling position can be used as both a supported or unsupported position or to utilize available cover or just to make you a smaller target. The kneeling position is the most versatile, stable position due to its simplicity and the speed with which it can be acquired. Requiring the shooter to draw and assume the kneeling position and to fire under time constraints, trains and tests manipulation skills as well as quick sight shooting skills.
STAGE IV - 4 yards
Phase I 3 rounds, one or two hands (3 seconds)
(2 shots to body mass and 1 shot to head)
Instinct shooting technique from holster with one step to the right AFTER rounds are fired. Ready gun and return to original position. Repeat once and holster.
Phase II 3 rounds, one or two hands (3 seconds)
(2 shots to body mass and 1 shot to head)
Instinct shooting technique from holster with one step to the left AFTER rounds are fired. Ready gun and return to original position. Repeat once and holster.
STAGE IV - TRAINING CONSIDERATIONS:
A) For double action semi-automatics pistols, the weapon should be decocked when the shooter lowers weapon to ready gun position after firing first 3 rounds at Stage IV.
B) Movement to the right/left should be immediately after rounds are fired.
Stage IV reinforces the basic techniques required for officer survival in the event of a failed incapacitation. In addition, it covers use of the weapon from the ready-gun position. The ready-gun position is used during high-risk searching and when challenging a dangerous subject. In the ready-gun position, the weapon will be lowered to approximately waist level, with the barrel pointed toward the target.
STAGE V - 2 yard
2 rounds - One or two hands (2 seconds
Close quarter shooting position from holster with one full step to the rear
Repeat twice
STAGE V - TRAINING CONSIDERATIONS:
A) Upon completion of each string of fire, shooter waits for instructor's command to move back to two-yard line.
B) Shooter must holster weapon after each string of fire.
This stage covers the most basic techniques of handgun training--the ability to respond to a sudden, close-range confrontation under realistic time constraints. The shooter is to take one step to the rear to create distance. Shooter should be stepping and drawing at the same time. The shooter has the option of using the one or two-hand, close-quarter shooting position or the extended hip shooting position. However, it must be mentioned that the off-hand at this distance might be occupied, defending or restraining a subject. Probably, if given a choice, shooter will use two hands.
armsmaster270
New member
Same here
typically two times a year, 50 round course, distances include: 5,7,15,25. Speed and tactical reloads, all malfunctions cleared by the shooter, no alibis, some positional shooting (kneeling).
Retired officers 3 range periods a year only need to shoot 1 period to Qualify but you can shoot all 3 just BYOB (Bring Your Own Bullets) Since the shortage Dept does not supply ammo. Before supplied ammo and refills for your weapon with duty ammo after qual.
typically two times a year, 50 round course, distances include: 5,7,15,25. Speed and tactical reloads, all malfunctions cleared by the shooter, no alibis, some positional shooting (kneeling).
Retired officers 3 range periods a year only need to shoot 1 period to Qualify but you can shoot all 3 just BYOB (Bring Your Own Bullets) Since the shortage Dept does not supply ammo. Before supplied ammo and refills for your weapon with duty ammo after qual.
I retired in CA and now live in UT. In CA we had to qualify 1 time a quarter. Here in UT it depends on the county I qualify in. I have to use the same course of fire their Sheriff uses. Since moving here, I just stopped carring, so never bothered to find out what the course is.
HTH...
Mel
HTH...
Mel
deadcoyote
New member
In sunny CA...
We have to requalify at leat once every 90 days (some more by assignment). 18 shots at the 25 yard line (6 strong handstanding-six weak hand standing- six stong hand kneeling in 60 seconds or less), 12 @ 15 yards (6 strong-6 weak both standing in 30 seconds), 10 @ 7 yards all stong hand standing in less than 20 seconds. It's easy, im pretty sure my wife could pass it.
We have to requalify at leat once every 90 days (some more by assignment). 18 shots at the 25 yard line (6 strong handstanding-six weak hand standing- six stong hand kneeling in 60 seconds or less), 12 @ 15 yards (6 strong-6 weak both standing in 30 seconds), 10 @ 7 yards all stong hand standing in less than 20 seconds. It's easy, im pretty sure my wife could pass it.
As noted, there are many agencies with many standards. Shooting from either the 1.5 or 3 yard mark out to the 25 yard mark once a quarter seems to be the norm.
Know agencies in your neck of the woods who fall short of that? Petition the politicians, management, and unions responsible for the shortcoming. Of course they'll blame one another, but if enough pressure is brought to bear on two of them the third is likely to follow along. At which point the funding must be made available...
Know agencies in your neck of the woods who fall short of that? Petition the politicians, management, and unions responsible for the shortcoming. Of course they'll blame one another, but if enough pressure is brought to bear on two of them the third is likely to follow along. At which point the funding must be made available...
Deadcoyote - our agency had that when I started in 89, but when I retired in 06, it was way different. They went to 12 rounds at the 3 yrd line combat at your waist, 12 rounds at the 7 yrd line combat at shoulders both eyes open and 12 rounds at the 25 using sights one eye closed.
Easy to qualify after the change. Before there was barracade and strong and weak hand and kneeling and all sorts of stuff. Many people failed and supposedly they found that the techniques were not used in real life and adopted some of the FBI stuff.
So I guess to answer the OP, It really depends on the agency and or state or if it is fed. All the courses are a bit different.
Mel
Easy to qualify after the change. Before there was barracade and strong and weak hand and kneeling and all sorts of stuff. Many people failed and supposedly they found that the techniques were not used in real life and adopted some of the FBI stuff.
So I guess to answer the OP, It really depends on the agency and or state or if it is fed. All the courses are a bit different.
Mel
deadcoyote
New member
I started in 98, we used to qual like you stated above then our assistant chief discovered the "advanced marksman course" Which is the alleged name of the course we do now. The idea being, in our litigous state, if we get caught up in criticism after a critical incident (shooting) we can cover our rears by saying: "We have all our deputy's qualify on the Advanced Marksmanship course"
Trigger Finger
New member
I retired from the largest police department in California. We had to qualify every other month. It went to every six months if you had over 20. Special assignments required more qualification. Qualification consisted of 30 rounds.
I think this should be the minimum. Many officers and detectives don't do any shooting except for qualifying. Those agencies that require qualifying every year, while better than nothing, is not doing much good for the officers and people they serve. Considering the stress of a live shooting the more practice you can get the better. I realize the cost may be prohibitive but it should pay for itself after the first shooting an officer is in.!
I think this should be the minimum. Many officers and detectives don't do any shooting except for qualifying. Those agencies that require qualifying every year, while better than nothing, is not doing much good for the officers and people they serve. Considering the stress of a live shooting the more practice you can get the better. I realize the cost may be prohibitive but it should pay for itself after the first shooting an officer is in.!
Well the three of us from CA and three different qualifications required.
Wow. In our department the special positions would qual quarterly and if you carried an off duty you qualified quarterly.
At one time I was qualified with a 9mm Barretta, .38 S&W, 12G 870, Ruger mini 14, and h&k 94 9mm, and my personal Glock 19.
Mel
Wow. In our department the special positions would qual quarterly and if you carried an off duty you qualified quarterly.
At one time I was qualified with a 9mm Barretta, .38 S&W, 12G 870, Ruger mini 14, and h&k 94 9mm, and my personal Glock 19.
Mel
Big Caliber
New member
Gees...I had no concept that quailfying would be so varied. I have a hard enough time hitting a 6" circle at 25yds., sitting at a bench and using a handgun rest, let alone trying to produce a decent group with with my various test loads. I do well at 15yds, but again, that's from a rest. Perhaps I should gather up my hg's and trade them in on another rifle. 
But thanks for all the input. And be careful out there.
But thanks for all the input. And be careful out there.