Question for LEO's
- Thread starter IHMSA Shooter
- Start date
After 14 years of civilian LEO experience, I am absolutely convinced that 90% of officers will not train on their own. They won't even practice dry fire, quick draw or other weapon handling skills. They don't think about gunfighting unless forced to. And, I'm not just talking about administrators. This includes men and women who are on the street day in and day out. The pistol is part of the uniform. These same officers see no need for rifles and shotguns and rely only on their very meager skills with a pistol. I think most departments need to do a better job preparing our officers through regular in-service training and not just shooting at the range. Surviving arm confrontations involves alot more than skill on a paper target.
I believe that officers who aren't well skilled with their firearms due to "deliberate indifference" are not fullfilling their duties to their familes and to society. The same goes for agencies that do not institute regular training.
I believe that officers who aren't well skilled with their firearms due to "deliberate indifference" are not fullfilling their duties to their familes and to society. The same goes for agencies that do not institute regular training.
training
My department is similar to twoxforr.
We shoot 4 times and score once a year(must score 75 to pass).
4X 52 rounds =208 rounds a year.
We are "allowed" 50 rounds a month to use for training. 50x12=600
Only about 5% of officers use these rounds.
About 10% of the officers shoot like garbage (less than 85 score).
About 60% score 85 to 95.
About 30% can score 100 on any given day.
However, Most Police shooting are within 25 feet and alot are within 5 feet.
This is how they survive with little training.
My department is similar to twoxforr.
We shoot 4 times and score once a year(must score 75 to pass).
4X 52 rounds =208 rounds a year.
We are "allowed" 50 rounds a month to use for training. 50x12=600
Only about 5% of officers use these rounds.
About 10% of the officers shoot like garbage (less than 85 score).
About 60% score 85 to 95.
About 30% can score 100 on any given day.
However, Most Police shooting are within 25 feet and alot are within 5 feet.
This is how they survive with little training.
I am not in the law enforcement profession so I am hesitant to criticize, but this is a little scary. Officers and anybody that owns a firearm owe it to themselves and to bystanders (if God forbid they need to use it) to practice on a regular basis. I would say 50 rounds per month is an absolute BARE minimum. Yes, it's part of the uniform, but a badge or handcuffs can't take a life from 25 yards in a split second. When you think about it, having a firearm is an awesome responsibility.
Striker071
New member
I work for a government agency that doesnt allow us to practice with our duty weapon without approval... and they dont give us approval... stupid stupid stupid...... and they can fire us if we dont qualify....
U.S.SFC_RET
New member
I strongly advocated and encourage range shooting every chance I could get in the Service. I will happily do it even now. If there are any LEo's in the Belair, Md area who need one on one hand gun training just PM me. I put twenty years in the Army doing this business so why stop now. I can and will teach the finer pionts of hand gunning. PM me.
You know, all of these posts hit very close to home--unfortunately.
To all non-LEO reading this, you would probably be VERY surprised to know that the folks who do the hiring for police--the screeners, psychologists, and others--will in some places actually DISQUALIFY your application, if you show too much interest in firearms!!
And, it doesn't end there. When I started shooting with my Department, on the third qualification I ran into something disconcerting.
First, a little background...
I've been attracted to, and interested in, firearms since I was 8. I got into the Army, and volunteered for range details so that I could burn up some ammunition. Along the way, I met some folks who knew how to shoot well, and they passed on their knowledge to me.
Somewhere in the mid-80's I started reloading and casting my own bullets. I managed to make it to the range at least 3-4 times a month. A close friend got me interested in IPSC, and I started shooting that on a casual basis. Never formally qualified.
In 1997, I got into Law Enforcement. The requirements for qualification at that time (to me) were ridiculously easy.
Fast forward to 1999, when I got into NRA Conventional Pistol, also known as Bullseye shooting.
Now (to the point I'm mentioning in this post), my attitude was this at qualifications: "Let's think about this...they give me a target with an X ring that looks like a dinner plate, at 3 to 25 yards, and the let me shoot it with BOTH hands. Ooo-kay.....is this supposed to be hard?"
So, during this qualification, I had just finished doing my second double hammer on the B27. Our first stage consists of two rounds COM, followed by two rounds to the head, from a fully secured holster within 4 seconds. For me, that was the draw, roll the trigger twice centered, let the recoil of the second shot carry the pistol up to the head, roll twice more.
I was feeling good until I heard another officer behind me, say--with considerable VENOM in his voice, "That's all he (bleeping) does is shoot!"
Suddenly, I didn't feel so good about cleaning the target.
I later found out that the Chief of Police had been told by some of the officers that I was a PSYCHO, and that I was obsessed with guns!!! I decided to meet the problem head on, and asked for a meeting with the Chief.
After going into his office, I asked him if he had some misgivings about me, with firearms as a main concern. He was up front with me, and relayed the things he had been told about me.
I was quiet for a second, and then I asked, "Chief, you follow pro sports, right?" He said that he did. I asked, "So, if you wanted, you could probably quote the stats on your favorite teams and players, and you probably know the games cold--right?"
He said that this was the case.
I said, "Chief, I am the same way--but my focal point is what I term the science of firearms and ballistics. I have been an active student of this since I was a child. I can discuss internal, external and terminal ballistics; ballistic coefficients and sectional densities, the effect of pitch, yaw and roll on a projectile at high speeds. I can discuss with you the steel used in the manufacture of firearms, its fabrication and the heat treatment to turn the steel into metal suitable for containing the pressures and stresses generated upon firing. We can also talk about plastic and permanent deformations, and Young's Modulus.
"I am an active competitor and sport shooter; I relax by taking a precision rifle to the range, and trying to shoot a tiny group as far away as I can.
"To prepare for patrol, I have taken my duty gun and practiced my draw stroke over 3000 times, over the course of two weeks. This is to keep me safe and my fellow officers can count on me, if they need to.
"I am also a nationally ranked competitor--at least in my class--and in 2002, I won my class in the Washington State Pistol Championships.
"Chief, I hope and pray that the only thing I ever shoot is paper--and maybe a tin can here and there. But if I have to draw my service weapon and deploy it, you can bet that I will be ready, dependable--and damned accurate."
(Not long after that, I was offered the spot for precision rifleman.
)
I've spent considerable cost over the years honing my skills--and I am nowhere NEAR as good as I think I should be! I'll consider myself competent when I can shoot as accurately as a Rob Leatham or Todd Jarrett, and as fast as Jerry Miculek (with a Colt semi-auto, that is!)
To all non-LEO reading this, you would probably be VERY surprised to know that the folks who do the hiring for police--the screeners, psychologists, and others--will in some places actually DISQUALIFY your application, if you show too much interest in firearms!!
And, it doesn't end there. When I started shooting with my Department, on the third qualification I ran into something disconcerting.
First, a little background...
I've been attracted to, and interested in, firearms since I was 8. I got into the Army, and volunteered for range details so that I could burn up some ammunition. Along the way, I met some folks who knew how to shoot well, and they passed on their knowledge to me.
Somewhere in the mid-80's I started reloading and casting my own bullets. I managed to make it to the range at least 3-4 times a month. A close friend got me interested in IPSC, and I started shooting that on a casual basis. Never formally qualified.
In 1997, I got into Law Enforcement. The requirements for qualification at that time (to me) were ridiculously easy.
Fast forward to 1999, when I got into NRA Conventional Pistol, also known as Bullseye shooting.
Now (to the point I'm mentioning in this post), my attitude was this at qualifications: "Let's think about this...they give me a target with an X ring that looks like a dinner plate, at 3 to 25 yards, and the let me shoot it with BOTH hands. Ooo-kay.....is this supposed to be hard?"
So, during this qualification, I had just finished doing my second double hammer on the B27. Our first stage consists of two rounds COM, followed by two rounds to the head, from a fully secured holster within 4 seconds. For me, that was the draw, roll the trigger twice centered, let the recoil of the second shot carry the pistol up to the head, roll twice more.
I was feeling good until I heard another officer behind me, say--with considerable VENOM in his voice, "That's all he (bleeping) does is shoot!"
Suddenly, I didn't feel so good about cleaning the target.
I later found out that the Chief of Police had been told by some of the officers that I was a PSYCHO, and that I was obsessed with guns!!! I decided to meet the problem head on, and asked for a meeting with the Chief.
After going into his office, I asked him if he had some misgivings about me, with firearms as a main concern. He was up front with me, and relayed the things he had been told about me.
I was quiet for a second, and then I asked, "Chief, you follow pro sports, right?" He said that he did. I asked, "So, if you wanted, you could probably quote the stats on your favorite teams and players, and you probably know the games cold--right?"
He said that this was the case.
I said, "Chief, I am the same way--but my focal point is what I term the science of firearms and ballistics. I have been an active student of this since I was a child. I can discuss internal, external and terminal ballistics; ballistic coefficients and sectional densities, the effect of pitch, yaw and roll on a projectile at high speeds. I can discuss with you the steel used in the manufacture of firearms, its fabrication and the heat treatment to turn the steel into metal suitable for containing the pressures and stresses generated upon firing. We can also talk about plastic and permanent deformations, and Young's Modulus.
"I am an active competitor and sport shooter; I relax by taking a precision rifle to the range, and trying to shoot a tiny group as far away as I can.
"To prepare for patrol, I have taken my duty gun and practiced my draw stroke over 3000 times, over the course of two weeks. This is to keep me safe and my fellow officers can count on me, if they need to.
"I am also a nationally ranked competitor--at least in my class--and in 2002, I won my class in the Washington State Pistol Championships.
"Chief, I hope and pray that the only thing I ever shoot is paper--and maybe a tin can here and there. But if I have to draw my service weapon and deploy it, you can bet that I will be ready, dependable--and damned accurate."
(Not long after that, I was offered the spot for precision rifleman.
)I've spent considerable cost over the years honing my skills--and I am nowhere NEAR as good as I think I should be! I'll consider myself competent when I can shoot as accurately as a Rob Leatham or Todd Jarrett, and as fast as Jerry Miculek (with a Colt semi-auto, that is!)
Normal, I would say so. In Summit, NJ I recently asked a LEO if he liked the Smith and Wesson M&P (that he was carrying on his waist, I was intrested in buying one). He responded "Oh, I've never shot one of those." I looked at him like he had 10 heads. I said "well, thats what you're carrying" and he responded "I just know it has different size grips and is comfortable." HAHA and NJ wonders why I want to carry a gun? Even if this LEO showed up in time on a call I would NEVER trust him to save my life in a shootout. How can you be competent at shooting if you dont know what gun you carry every day?