Question about tactics

Tackle - it was also tried at Virginia Tech and the kid was shot to pieces. On the other hand in a Oregon school shooting, it worked. Have to google the details. Think the kid took a round but got to him. It does depend on distance.

So as said, there's no set answer. You just have the situation, the skills, the will and the interaction of all of these.

Pasteur said chance favors the prepared. That's it.
 
TeamSinglestack said:
3. Responder behaviors
- moving toward the gunfire
- issuing commands / evacuating victims and or casualties
- actively pursuing the threat while ignoring bystanders
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There's an instant or two of "extra special" danger, though, particularly if there are multiple GOOD guys....

Imagine a scene like what happened in Arizona... except 3, maybe 4, CCWers are present and all draw and some or all fire on the assailant.


Now, you've got 3 or 4 guys with guns draw, at least some of whom have fired shots, none know who the bad guy is or was....

What do you do? What do they do? You already know that shots are fired, you don't know who the good guy is, do you yell warnings to the other armed people when shots have already been fired, just moments ago? What if they yell warnings to you? What if one of them isn't so savvy and starts shooting at other armed people?

This situation is potentially disastrous.

If we manage to control and survive these few precious instant of chaos then all is well, probably, but those first few seconds, even fractions of seconds, could go very, very wrong.




It's all so easy in our minds, when we're the good guy and everybody knows it, and we're the ONLY good guy, and there's nobody between us and the bad guy, and nobody behind him and when we shoot the bad guy we don't ever miss and the bad guy doesn't shoot back and the bad guy dies instantly....

If only.
 
According to reports this morning there was a CCW holder at the scene and he was one of the folks responsible for restraining the shooter. From what was reported the CCW made the right choice in NOT using his weapon

How would you handle the situation (of course I feel I would get involved)
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OK but remember you are not LE and your CCW permit does not extend that right to you.
All situations are different and most times the best action is to take no action.
With regards to the mess in Arizona are you considering the possibility of more innocents being shot by YOU ( friendly fire) under the stress of using your weapon in a LIVE gun fight with the chance of being shot back at?
Without being there there are too many variables to even make the statement of I would get involved. And again this is my opinion.
 
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Depends on if my family is with me, I'll take care of them first (try to get them to safety, get between the shooter and them, etc) DO NO HARM!! Don't get in over your head, If you shoot reholster asap and get your gun out of sight. When officers arrive, put your hands in the air in the surrender position and wait for orders and do what you're told.
Until help arrives, render aid as best u can. Do NOT add to the confusion by running and screaming, etc. Get on the phone to 911 and give as much info as u can or as much as asked for.
 
TANGO DOWN!!!

I neutralized the shooter. The BG is down
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Good God in heaven, I can't imagine sitting on a jury and hearing that 911 tape being played...

If you are in a crowd where there is a active shooter and you have a shot, and the opportunity presents itself and you shoot, leave the Delta Team talk on your Xbox.

"Help! A man was just shooting into the crowd at "x". He's stopped. My name is "y" There are a lot of hurt people. Send help quick!"

IF 911 lets you stay on the line, do so. (jerks have hung up on me, apparently holding my dad's airway open was causing me to speak too quickly... Dad's fine, I'm still ******)

Holster your gun, do whatever the emergency dictates until the arrival of the police.

When the police show up:
"Thank God you're here, I'm the one who called..."
Keep your hands up and do exactly what they say.
Answer questions only pertaining to the safety of the officers, those around you. You will answer any other questions once you have your lawyer present. YOU NEED TO VERBALLY ASSERT YOUR RIGHT TO BE SILENT!. It is likely that you will be arrested.

At this point, let the expert take over, a lawyer. only answer questions when you are in the presence of and under the council of your lawyer. Don't talk, no matter what the officers say, "they can lie to you to get you to "confess"


... or

"Mr. X checking in, TANGO DOWN! TANGO DOWN! Light collateral! Need a helo at the LZ! Repeat I have NETRULAIZED the threat with my sweet SIG SAUER P-228 with under slung bayonet! Yup I KILLED him, but good! Can't get any deader than that guy I shot repeatedly! Warn your local cops about the Delta operator looking guy with the huge guns, and I'm not talking about my Sig!"

I need to stop, I had too much fun with that.
 
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The biggest rule for intervention to me is "Harm no innocents."
What does that mean? First, make sure you positively ID the target. Second, make sure your shots ONLY hit the intended target.

I've seen SWAT members miss hostage-type targets at 4 yards with pistols, with no time limit. (CSAT hostage targets) Make sure you make your hits!
 
Good thinking Gentleman! All in all, we can all agree that all the factors in this particular case will more than likely not be in another.

And as it pertains to the original question, I would get involved, if that be shooting the guy, seeking cover and calling police, or tazing the SOB. Of course if he is 14 feet away and I am with my family, I will do what needs to be done. But if he is 100 feet away... I'm not going to run in there like rambo blasting shots. I would seek cover and call police.

What things could be "practiced" for a situation like this?
 
Yelling at the shooter to "drop the gun" or other such commands may go a long ways to helping others realize that you are a good guy and to help keep another potential good guy shooter from shooting you. The downside is that it may prompt with bad guy as well and remove the tactical advantage that you had of him not realizing that you were present or that you were a threat.

According to reports this morning there was a CCW holder at the scene and he was one of the folks responsible for restraining the shooter. From what was reported the CCW made the right choice in NOT using his weapon
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Zamudio didn't have any real choice. He was not present for the shooting, but was inside a drug store buying cigarettes. He did respond to the shooting, but by the time he arrived, the shooting had stopped and the shooter was grounded with two guys already on top of him. His "right choice" to not use his gun wasn't any sort of great achievement. He didn't even see his potential target until it was covered up with good guys with several others around.

OK but remember you are not LE and your CCW permit does not extend that right to you.
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The CCW permit doesn't, but the law does. I can use lethal force to stop lethal force and I can effect a citizen's arrest.
 
cit1911 asked what we could practice for these situations:

1. Distance shooting, . . . most importantly knowing just how far away you are really qualified, capable, and willing to engage a bg. Realize there is a world of difference in trying to put a COM shot on a 375 pound lard bag standing up, . . . and trying to hit the head of a BG who is hunkered behind a tree, dumpster, etc. Knowing your capability comes only from practice.

2. Family warnings, . . . getting your family in tune with whatever warning you would give them: a code word, a scramble alert, whatever. The last thing you need is a family member thinking you are playing around as the BG's are busting in the front door and you have to settle the silly little family matter first. They need to react: instantaneously, without question, and correctly.

3. Your equipment, . . . practicing with your equipment in such a manner that you don't have to question if you have it, . . . where it is, . . . what condition it is in, . . . is it loaded, . . . where are the bullets and the batteries, . . . etc.

I believe these are the most important because simply, . . . I (and you) are not carrying the responsibility of protecting the known free world. We are only responsible for ourselves, our family, and those around us when the stuff hits the fan. We can best serve those responsibilities if we do the above.

May God bless,
Dwight
 
I think it's important to bear in mind that most of the people around a situation like this would have little or no idea what was going on at the time of the incident. Not hearing things , not seeing things, senses shutting down in the excitement
I , for one, wouldn't want to risk getting myself shot in an melee so the decision to shoot/not shoot is difficult, it's not like you can shout that your the police etc plus you will need to be prepared for the aftermath
IF I did have the opportunity to shoot an active shooter AND I was safe in doing so - I would probably reholster and probably leave the scene for a safe place while calling in to LE what I did
 
As other have mentioned...

Be sure of your target.

Be sure of your capabilities.

As for minimizing the chances of your being identified as the bad guy yelling "help POLICE (as in calling for police assistance), get down" might help. While there are laws against impersonation a LEO, I think it would be hard to make the case that your yelling "help POLICE" was a form of self-identification rather then a calling for assistance.
 
I honestly cannot think of a prosecutor going after a CCWer who stopped an active shooter for shouting something like "Police, get down." I think there would be too much "hero status" from the media for that.

...now, if the stop was not successful or the CCWer hit someone else, yeah, they might get the kitchen sink thrown at them by a prosecutor!
 
What things could be "practiced" for a situation like this?
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I personally do not think there is training for what happened in Arizona. If you want training to deal with folks like the shooter in Arizona join a law enforcement agency. They'll give you all the training you need, or join the military, they too will give you all the training you need and if you show you're good enough maybe sniper school.:eek:
 
If you want training to deal with folks like the shooter in Arizona join a law enforcement agency. They'll give you all the training you need, or join the military, they too will give you all the training you need
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Sadly, no. Most organizations do not pay for their employees to take that sort of training (active shooter response, hostage situations, personal protective detail work, etc). Sure, some of the better agencies might, but the average officer isn't likely to see much training on that (powerpoints don't count as good training).
 
Be sure of my target-would be getting my family and myself safely away,

while calling 911 to summon personnel specifically trained to handle this situation

THE POLICE.

I know my capabilities and I'm certain I was never trained to handle a situation like this.

If you plan on "handling" "scenarios" like these, perhaps you should study at

the police academy...l
 
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