Question about tactics

C

cit1911

Inactive
With the recent idiot in Arizona deciding to let loose on a bunch of innocent people, I got to thinking about how I would handle the situation as a CCW holder. How would you handle the situation (of course I feel I would get involved) so that people dont think your a second shooter? How would you get across that your the good guy to other possible CCW holders? Other than obviously calling the authorites, what else could be done?:confused:
 
It all depends....

Every shooting is different. The circumstances and the amount of information you have at the time will determine what you think you may do.

There was a person at the Arizona shooting with a concealed handgun but found out too late - basically in this shooting everything happened very quickly. He went through one mag (33 round Glock mag) from the sounds of it. As he was reloading he thankfully was subdued. By that time he was surrounded by people so no clear shot.

One fact is true. If a clear cut shooting happens - you got to decide now what you'll do.

When it's happening is not the time to decide - it's time to decide based on what is happening at the time but not to debate with yourself the good and bad of taking out a BG.

If you carry you need to decide that one now.
 
I appreciate the reply, I have already decided that I absolutely would get involved, and as such, carry... I am fairly new to the CCW game, and didn't know all the details to the shooting. I live near Salt Lake City, where the Trolly Square shootings happened a few years back and was my deciding factor to carry. I was curious how the situation could be handled.
 
So lets say this maniac shot seven people and you have the shot so you take it. Lets say you stop him right in his tracks. You have been practicing considerably and because of that you were able to place two perfect shots center mass from concealed carry. It can happen that fast. You now need people to know immediately that you're the good guy. First thing to do from what I'm told is to tell everyone you can that he would have kept killing people and that you stopped him. You stopped the threat or he would have kept killing. This is about all I would say but I would say it over and over so people would get it through there heads even though most of them are surely in shock.
 
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Ok, I need to add something else. Lets say a cop shows up because he's nearby. He finds out you have a weapon either through somone else or because you haven't put it away yet. Do exactly what the officers says immediatly. Don't plead your case when he's telling you to drop the weapon and put your hands up. Just do what he says. He couldn't care less right now what you feel or think. The more you hesitate the higher his addrenaline will climb. He will put handcuffs on you - so what. You are not arrested. Once he gets you cuffed he'll be able to calm down. Then you can tell him that the other man was killing people and you stopped the threat. Then you can show him your concealed weapons permit. Just my thought.
 
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Shooting in a crowd is always dangerous.The possibility of shooting innicent bystanders is probably too high.The possibility of others with firearms especially plaincloths cops of private security mistaking you for a bad guy is also high.Bacically to many unforseeable variables in these situations to apply deadly force.

The best tools to neutralize crazies in a crowd is bear spray or a tazer.
 
The first thing you can do to identify that you are the good guy to bystanders is to yell for someone to "call 911" or "call the Police" and then start asking if anyone else is hurt, these are not things a bad guy will say and it will (or should) immediately identify you as a good guy in the mind of bystanders. Even a confused or panicked person should pick up on this subconsciously.
When the police get there (whether you put the gun away already or not) do exactly what they say until they sort through the mess and either give you a chance to talk or figure out that you are on their side.
 
My humble opinion and prepared plan

The first and most important thing is to stop the shooter. If that means shooting him, fine. If I can stop him some other way, fine. But I WILL stop him. If I have to shoot, the gun goes back into the holster as soon as I think the situation is secure (unless a law enforcement officer tells me to drop it sooner). The second thing is to try to save the lives of the injured to the extent that my knowledge, skills and abilities allow. The arrival of a law enforcement officer puts him in charge, so I'll do everything that he or she says to do as soon as physically posible.

I know that this is short and rather generalized, but it is what I intend to do if I'm ever in that sort of situation. General decisions are already made, specifics are situationally driven.
 
Get training and have common sense. There is no one set of commando principles or actions that are set in stone and will solve all situations.

If the CCW guy there who is talking about how he was ready to shoot - had shot the guy disarming the shooter - we could kiss the CCW argument good bye in the eyes of the initiated public.

If you saw after the shots started, some guy pull a gun and start running towards the fray - well, who is he? That actually happened at a mall shooting - some hubby heard his wife was inside and started to run through the surrounding law with gun out to save the wife - luckily the police didn't hose him down.

Have abilities and understand the principles involved and practice. You can fantasize about what you would actually do on the internet.

There are no absolutes.
 
Probably one of the worst situations for a ccw holder..Mass shootings usually mean hysteria as well.
If you get a clean open shot on the shooter,then take it.
If not then run for cover until you get a shot or he/she gets subdued.
Be prepared to get arrested afterwards..The police need to secure the scene,then find out what happened.
Someone most likely will point you out as the shooter(only because they saw a gun in your hand and nothing else)
Just let the cops sort it out and everything will end ok if you did your job correctly.
Much different scenario than a one on one robbery/mugging self defense situation
 
I appreciate everyones reply and opinion, I know that in a sinerio like this, there are no absolutes. It will be very fast and very dangerous. I Know that I will not know the exact thing to do when training at the range. But in saying that, I would really like to be at least mentally prepared for something like this
 
as many said here, there's no one reaction, or a correct answer/solution, but the one thing that depends on any action is POSITION. Your position will dictate your actions.

The problem with this type of scenario is the tranquil setting, your level of awareness would be much different if the President was there, since its always possible with the attempts on pass presidents.

The passiveness of this type of setting creates a body freeze to a trauma event/action, the Brain can register what the eyes are seeing, and the first reaction if your up close is cover when someone is bursting out repeated shots.

So your reaction to this type of scenario will vary... base on position
 
Simple practice of punching holes at a static range is insufficient if one is serious about critical incident response. With no offense to anyone, it's been shown that simulation training helps to overcome the freeze response and act effectively. Not that anyone might not rise to the incident as we saw in Tucson but I'm just arguing about static range training as really being the sole way to go if you consider training.
 
It seems to me that pulling your weapon has too many downsides to it. If you have a clear shot, what is behind him if the round goes thru him? Others may think you are the shooter, another CC, an Leo might mistake you for the BG. Position is a good point. Pepper spray if close enough might work. I can't believe that in a crowd someone was not close enough to be able to tackle or deck him before he fired 30 rounds. That is risky, but better than standing there waiting to be shot. Thought provoking!
 
IMO there will always be the chance of being mistaken for the "mad gunman" without having an overt uniform that sets you apart. However, behavior can be a clue to identity in crises situations, and I believe your behavior, alone, can be enough to distinguish yourself from others, including the "mad gunman".

I foresee 3 distinct types of behavior in those situations:

1. Threat behaviors, AKA, the "mad gunman"
- indiscriminately shooting people
- pursuing people to shoot
- people scattering / cowering in his wake
- no attempt to conceal himself or use cover

2. Victim behaviors
- Fleeing the scene
- cowering behind cover
- treating casualties at the scene

3. Responder behaviors
- moving toward the gunfire
- issuing commands / evacuating victims and or casualties
- actively pursuing the threat while ignoring bystanders

Most people are pretty perceptive and can get a feel for the intent of an individual based on their behavior / body language. If you are displaying anything close to "responder" behaviors, I believe you have a chance of making people pause before they assume you are a threat. No guarantees of course...
 
There are not guarantees on anything the moment you pull your firearm out of that holster:

1. Some mall ninja may mistake you for the active shooter, . . . and shoot you.

2. An undercover or off duty policeman may mistake you for the active shooter, . . . and shoot you.

3. You may take a shot or shots at the bg, . . . miss, . . . and be contributing to the casualties list.

4. The hardest one of all for those of us who carry, . . . be a good witness, . . . slink out if you can, . . . react against the active shooter only when he has threatened you and/or yours, . . . or you are at such a range that you can ice the dude, . . . put your weapon away, . . . and wait for LEO's.

But then again, . . . nobody said being a sheepdog was easy.

May God bless,
Dwight
 
There is no set formula

I know you want a straight forward answer. It can be very frustrating when you play these "what if" games... or weekend quarterbacking scenarios.

The best thing to do is know the laws of your state, get "training" to shoot (not just punching paper at some target). Maybe even do some IDPA or USPSA (aka IPSC) shooting competitions to get some shooting on the move skills.

If you get involved (as it was mentioned before in another post)... expect to be arrested. Your best bet is to neutralize the threat, call 911 and surrender your firearm to law enforcement when they arrive.

It's best to re-holster your firearm when all is settled. LEO will detain anyone they think was involved and until they can clear things up - anyone with a firearm is a suspect. With such confusion on arrival to the scene it can take hours to days to figure out what happened...

Be very verbal once the shooting is over - meaning let folks know you are a good guy. Call 911 and let them know you are on scene and give your description and that you are armed and you got involved (meaning you had to shoot the BG).

Don't give too much emotional statements - just facts).... "this guy came out shooting people, I feared for my life and others so I neutralized the shooter. The BG is down and I am wearing..... I see no other threats and I have re-holstered my firearm. I am waiting by...... for police.

Some will argue not to make a statement to police but if it's a clear cut "threat of life" then a brief fact based statement can prevent hassles later. But on the flip side if you start giving every detail you can think of to include what you were thinking and so forth (bad idea). You can start to give conflicting details (everything is a blur and your memory may not be your friend after a heated incident).


You do have to run through several basic scenarios - make them as clear as day and decide and know what your skills are and what you can do. This means if a guy is a block away and he's shooting people left and right - do you take a shot? Do you seek cover and advance? Do you call 911 (while you are advancing using cover)? Are you skilled enough to make a shot from 100 feet? Not likely but everyone's skills are different. Also can your gun shoot 100 ft? Meaning if you have a LCP (380ACP) pocket gun - not a good idea for long distance shots over 40 feet.

Start with these clear scenarios and then work up some not so clear. The more you run these "what if" games in different scenario's the more your brain can sometimes handle them during "real" stress.
 
I am not against helping others but I am not inclined to jump between to men fighting, chase purse snatchers or investigate odd happenings in dark alleys. I carry a weapon for the purpose of defending myself/my family as a total last resort. Firing a weapon in public involves more than just me, it involves innocent people who could possibly end-up in the path of the fired projectile. Although I am a pretty good shot on paper, if given an opening-I would rather tackle a gunman than try and shoot into a paniced crowd.
 
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You go right ahead and tackle the gunman....

Just to let you know Suzanna Hupp's father tried doing that at the Luby's Massacre in Killeen, Tx

He didn't make it that far - brave but most often a last resort option. By him doing it - saved several other's lives.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suzanna_Hupp


Everyone has to come to their own decision on what they would do.... We're all different and we'll all be faced, if at all, with different situations.
 
Handling that situation wouldn't be as easy as it looks. One thing about this kind of situation is that you have to decide and act FAST. Remember, that gunman's going to INSTANTLY whip out his gun and go BANGBANGBANGBANGBANG in 2 or 3 seconds, before anybody realizes what's going on, and pow, it's OVER. And during that 2 or 3 seconds it will be TOTAL hysteria, with the gun blasting and people screaming and running in panic. It would take a second or two just to confirm where in the crowd the shots are coming from. Heck, for all you know, it's a security guy shooting at somebody who pulled out a gun. You'll have just a second or two to completely analyze the siutation, pull out your gun and KILL somebody. Not many could really do it.
 
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