Question About Marksmanship Under Stress

What the heck are you talking about? Is there a point?

So you believe you have no duty whatsoever to become proficient with your pistol?

Wait, I get it...you are a double naught spy so I can see where you would need to be proficient in all the other things you mention.

Get serious. This is serious business.
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You are right. It is serious business. I built my own range inclusive of a 100 yard pistol range 270 degree target (and it isn't square!) and 400 yard rifle range and have even hosted pistol competitions and other shooting events. I shoot thousands of rounds a year, been to lots of defensive pistol, shotgun, and carbine classes.

So yeah, I know what it means to be serious about practice, instruction, and training, along with the responsibility for all of that.

What's the point? Your call that folks have the responsibility to become proficient to the limits of their time and financial obligations with their CCW weapon is ludacris and is so because it is so unrealistic.

I do aprpeciate you backtracking from claiming people need to become proficient to the limits of their time and financial limitations for their CCW (as if CCW solves all the world's problems) and then quering me about thinking folks have no responsibility. That isn't what I intimated or said at all.

So why aren't you proficient in all the other areas as well? Why do you think you need to be more proficient in CCW shooting than medical training? While most CCW folks (like cops) never shoot their guns in defense while CCWing, they do encounter situations, often multiple every year, where medical training is beneficial. Human health is serious business and if preserving life is your concern, your time might first best be spent learning proper medical practices because you are more apt to need them than your CCW. Training to the limits of your time and financial limitations for CCW shooting at the expense of not training in other areas such as getting medical training would be stupid. Of course if you do get medical training, then you have lost that time where you could have been practicing for the CCW shooting that may never come.

BTW, as a Double Naught Spy, I have given up my hollywood acting and directing goals and am no longer working on becoming a brain surgeon.
 
Another thing I forgot to mention in my previous post was a single thing that sets these encounters apart and perhaps may even be the most stress inducing thing, at least for some people. That's the shoot or no shoot question. The bad guy is way beyond that point and the rest of us, I assue, are no where near being prepared to answer the question. Oh, I know, you go to training where you have to make that decision but the worst that can happen is you fail the course. Unless that training is more realistic than most, no one goes home dead. If there's a way to make that decision ahead of time, this would be a good place to talk about it.
 
To change the theme a bit, I see a lot of post here trying to excuse NOT practicing with their respective carry pistol/revolvers.

No time, no money, too old, no range close by, range is full, etc etc etc.

I call BS. The best and cheapest practice and training one can get doesn't cost a penny. It's dry firing. Practice drawing and presentation.

Sure actually firing in needed, But tons of dry firing will go a long ways to make what shooting you do, more productive.

My favorite "TOO OLD" or not physically fit. That one is totally BS, I'm 65, not in good shape at all, with 5 stints total leaving me with a bad ticker and COPD, I can still draw my J-Frame from my pocket and hit center mass up to 15 feet in less then 1/2 second.

Not because I'm naturally good, (there is no such thing as natural abilities when it comes to shooting, only hard work). What I do do is I have a little blue plastic J-frame training gun that I spend hours a week, walking around drawing it from my pocket and dry firing.

I do shoot a lot true, min 200 rounds a week minium, but I'm aware not everyone can do that.

If we spend as much time dry firing as we do complaining and coming up with reasons why we can't do something, we'd be much better off.

If we carry a firearm in our daily lives its our responsibility to be come proficient with it. We ow it to ourselves, our families and the public in general so if we ever have to use our gun, we don't have to result in "spray and pray"

I'll end this with a quote from Thomas Jefferson in a Letter to Peter Carr, 1785

A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercise, I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise and independence to the mind. Games played with the ball and others of that nature, are too violent to the body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun be your constant companion of your walks.
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To Double Naught Spy

I appreciate your prosaic response and your dedication to defensive pistolcraft as evidenced by your described efforts to train and practice.

I never said one should spend all their time and money to practice. I said they should become as proficient as possible within the limits of their available time and money. Obviously we all have other demands on both but if I choose to exercise my right to defend myself with lethal force if necessary, then I should spend an appropriate amount of those resources which are otherwise available to me to train, practice and become as proficient as I am able within those constraints.

Much like you I take it a bit further than I would expect of everyone because I have more resources available than most. I am CPR trained and certified. I do take a defensive driving course yearly (required by my employer). I did have my own rifle and pistol range when I had the property to do so and provided certified instruction at that facility for several years, I too expend thousands of rounds per year in training, practice and competition.

I no longer instruct for a fee. I do, however, offer my services free of charge to fellow club members, friends, co-workers, their wives and families to help them become more proficient in a shorter time and at much less cost than I bore.

It is serious business. I take it seriously, as do you from what you have said. I only stated, and still believe, that all who CCW should become as proficient as they can given their own personal limitations of time and funds available to them. It's not the same for everyone.
 
I've said this before about training. I understand the 'rights' issue when it comes to being able to carry concealed. That's an interesting debate.

However, I do come down on the side that if you are going to put forward the 'sheepdog', protector of the flock argument - then you have the responsibility to get reasonable training.

That's a subtle point. If you are just going to save yourself - then have fun.

This is important to me in the debates about campus carry. I continually get the critique that if we have a rampage (as compared to mugger be gone in the parking lot), folks would like the defender to have some competency under stress. Shooting an innocent, even if you save more, is a major no-no and sticking point. I know folks who would be OK with me carrying but then say they don't feel good about a well-know gun supporting bluster boy (I agree with them about his abililties).

kraig- me too, I try to shoot about 3 times a month and dry fire at annoying TV shows. I am getting a touch old for the H2H. Did a small knife fighting class and messed up my hand recently. Had to listen to the significant other express her opinion of old men playing games. :D
 
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There is no excuse for any law enforcement officer to not be proficient in any part of his job, they are paid as fully qualified LEO's, and if not fully qualified they should reduced in grade, pay and retrained or fired. If It was proven, as in the case of these officers, that I was not fully qualified in all aspects of my job I would be terminated. How can anyone defend a LEO that, in this incident it is quite evident, is not qualified with his sidearm. Most People that I know that have a CWFL spend many hours practicing at +\- 8 yds each month and the majority can place most shots COM.

These two officers did not use good judgement, they should not have engaged the individual in the area with hundreds of innocent bystanders. To apprehend one bad guy is not worth injuries or death of one innocent bystander. Why are high speed pursuites not allowed by most departments? Because of possible injuries to other drivers.

Bloomberg and the Brady Bunch blew their speech and news release on this one
 
I can still draw my J-Frame from my pocket and hit center mass up to 15 feet in less then 1/2 second.
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Still waiting to see the video of that. Hard to believe that you don't know someone with at least an iphone .....
 
Still waiting to see the video of that. Hard to believe that you don't know someone with at least an iphone .....
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My wife has been wanting to get one of those little camera's when she does I'll try to make a video. Can't guarantee the quality.

Who knows, I might become a movie star.

As to iphones, I don't have one but I wouldn't know how to work it if I did.

But if you want to bring your camera to Wyoming, you can make all the movies you want.
 
To Mr. Chuckusaret, generally policemen who actually are in armed encounters no matter what the outcome, provided they survive it, more than one time will often be reassigned to an off-the-street assignment. If nothing else, that takes experienced policemen out of circulation. I don't know how common it is or if it makes a difference.

In any event, you can't fire people just because they aren't perfect (or sufficiently proficient to meet your standards). Pretty soon you'd run out of employees. Remember also, no matter whether or not they exercised good judgement, they had to make their decision then and there. They didn't think about it over the weekend before deciding what the best thing to do was going to be.
 
3000 Miles To Graceland...

Not to bring up a Hollywood action film as a good example, but here goes....
If you watch the 2000s era action movie; 3000 Miles To Graceland, the casino take-down scene gives a example of armed guards/LE NOT shooting directly at or engaging armed subjects(said robbers with rifles, SMGs & shotguns).
The uniformed guards waited until the take-down crew was away from the main floor.
Now, I know it's a action film but a real event like that would also take some strong willpower to avoid a full auto gunfight in a crowded area.

If you never watched the movie, check it out, just for that scene.

Clyde
 
generally policemen who actually are in armed encounters no matter what the outcome, provided they survive it, more than one time will often be reassigned to an off-the-street assignment
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That wasn't the way it was on Anchorage Police Dept and most departments I've dealt with.

If you are involved in a shooter:

1st They take the gun involve but the supervisor is immediately required to give you another service revolver/pistol.

2: Mandatory three days off WITH PAY

3: Then you return to your normal duty position.

4: After that, depends on the ruling by the coroner inquest, if its ruled justifiable then that's the end of it, you get your original gun back after all court proceedings are complete.
 
I asked questions on the other thread that was closed due to a duplicate thread on this subject so I'll ask again here:

I've not seen a vid. that has sound so I was wondering...

When perp was walking down street and the two LEO'S approached him from behind, did perp arbitrarily just turn around and see LEO's or did LEO's order perp to stop?

Also, the vids I've watched shows everything happening in seconds. Since there's no sound on the vids. and knowing the perp never fired a round at the LEO's, was wondering since one officer fired 9 rds., the other seven, how fast were these shots fired?
 
Any cop I knew would whine like yankees if you pulled them off the street for a desk job.

I spent my whole career as a street cop (with additional duties when call upon). I refused to ever take the Sgts test for fear it could get me off the street.

I would have went nuts setting at a desk.
 
I went to NYC the very next night after this shooting for an evening out with the wife. We walked from Grand Central to the restaurant at 5th and 24th, walking right past the Empire State Building on that same exact sidewalk where this all unfolded.

Having previously viewed the video footage of this shooting several times, I recognized the same planters and bench from the video. There was now a visual heavy police and media presence in the area, and it was still extremely crowded, being less than a mile from Times Square.

As I walked through what was a crime scene only 24-36 hrs earlier, my thoughts were, first, "this is where it all happened", and, second (as a LEO), how would I have responded if placed in that same situation. This tourist and commercial area is highly populated at the time of day when the shooting occurred.

I won't judge the officers involved in this shooting, for I was not there and won't speculate on how I would've responded because it would only be conjecture. I've been involved in armed conflict in the past, having served 9 yrs in the military (primarily in Army Special Operations and Intelligence) and know that just because you've performed satisfactorily in one encounter does not mean you will do the so the next time. Luck, skill, training, and Mr Murphy all play a part in surviving such an incident, with the most important being a survival mindset.

I certainly don't envy these officers one bit for being put in this situation. You don't pick the day, the day picks you....and when it does, you will most certainly wish that your trained more (no matter your training level), because when proverbial **** hits fan, we default back to our level of training that has become instinctual.

That being said, the BG (and, yes, he is a BG after he executed a former coworker in broad daylight by shooting him once in the head and 3-5 more times as he lay on the ground) dictated the onset of the confrontation when he drew his .45 1911 model on the officers, pointed it at them, and pulled the trigger. Luckily it jammed or misfired. The officers (both 15 year veterans) fired a total of 14-16 rounds, with one officer firing 9 rds and the other 7 rds, and struck the BG between 6-10 times. Under high stress and on an extremely crowded city street in one of the largest cities in the world, the hit percentage on BG was very good....despite the unfortunate civilian casualties. Believe it or not this could've been a whole lot worse.
 
Pucker factor is all ways a consideration. Until you are in the situation you will never know how you will react. It takes your training time to kick in when you are in your first gunfight.

Recently there was a post involving a shoot out between a Police Officer and a robber. The Officer fired some 20 rounds before his training took over and he remember to use his front sight. These two officers did some what better.

That said I think Kraigway's first posting is spot on.
 
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