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Question about legality of purchasing guns.
- Thread starter GPossenti
- Start date
Dealers(FFL holders) are required to have you fill in ATF forms. Defacto registration. Private sellers don't need any paperwork. I wouldn't worry too much about the ATF paperwork though. If you see something you like at a price you're willing to pay, buy it.
Mind you, you want to be sure the firearm isn't stolen if you buy from a non-dealer. Criminals don't sell firearms at gun shows or advertise in the assorted newspapers, etc. Despite what the Brady Bunch thinks.
Mind you, you want to be sure the firearm isn't stolen if you buy from a non-dealer. Criminals don't sell firearms at gun shows or advertise in the assorted newspapers, etc. Despite what the Brady Bunch thinks.
rem870hunter
New member
i would buy at a shop. or a ftf private sale. my dad bought a few from his brother inlaw who doesn't hunt anymore and needed money. a nice ithaca 37 12 ga.,a savage/stevens 20 ga single,and a 12 ga. savage/stevens sxs 311. my 870 express was bought from a listing in shotgun news. the guy lived in my town. bought it used from another guy to hunt with it and never used it. just be sure its not a "hot gun". it would nice if there was a site or a phone call line that you can run the serial number to see if its stolen. or atleast find out who the previous owner or owners were. but that would be invasion of privacy i guess. last thing i would want is a phone call or letter from someone asking, hey did you own this........? where did you get it from? how many rounds did you put through it?
My concern is with the chance that a law is passed which bans guns, like that in San Francisco (which was struck down two years later by the court). With the San Francisco law, as well as others passed in other countries, DC, etc., the law requires gun owners to turn in their guns, or risk penalties. If the gun is purchased at a gun show with cash, then I'm not required to fill out an ATF form, so in the even such a ban is passed, nobody will be the wiser.
In the meantime, it's nobody's business to know if I own a gun. Is there any way other than gun shows to purchase without having to fill out paperwork?
In the meantime, it's nobody's business to know if I own a gun. Is there any way other than gun shows to purchase without having to fill out paperwork?
The main difference is whether you want any paper trail that says the gun belongs to you.
In some states, such as MA & CA, any transfer of ownership much go through an FFL to guarantee the state can track a found gun to the last owner. Other states have no such restriction and buying from a private party is like buying a used stereo or used power-drill. The state doesn't track those sales.
On the plus side for buying from an FFL dealer is that if your gun is ever stolen and you don't have the serial number, you might be able to obtain it from the FFL for a "search fee". It can also play to your advantage if you actually have to use it in self-defense where you can point out the gun is "duly registered" or "properly purchased" through a licensed dealer.
The only advantage of buying from a private party is that the government doesn't know you have that specific gun.
In some states, such as MA & CA, any transfer of ownership much go through an FFL to guarantee the state can track a found gun to the last owner. Other states have no such restriction and buying from a private party is like buying a used stereo or used power-drill. The state doesn't track those sales.
On the plus side for buying from an FFL dealer is that if your gun is ever stolen and you don't have the serial number, you might be able to obtain it from the FFL for a "search fee". It can also play to your advantage if you actually have to use it in self-defense where you can point out the gun is "duly registered" or "properly purchased" through a licensed dealer.
The only advantage of buying from a private party is that the government doesn't know you have that specific gun.
The only advantage of buying from a private party is that the government doesn't know you have that specific gun.
I will just make one comment about this. If you do buy from an individual person (Non FFL), and the gun is stolen, then you have received stolen property. So, if you don't get a receipt from the person with details about who they are, then you are putting yourself in some amount danger. The same goes if you sell to a person privately. If you do not get their info with signature, license number or something like that, and they go kill someone with the weapon (and it was formerly registered to you), who do you think the cops will come looking for?
I understand the desire of people to stay off of the grid,so to speak, but it comes with some amount of risk. Choose wisely.
As far as I know, my state of Louisiana doesn't require any registration.
I just wanna know that if I ever live in a place like San Francisco or D.C., which will confiscate my guns, they won't come for mine because they won't know I have them.
I don't plan on picking up Greensheet or the Thrifty Nickel for gun purchases, but purchasing at a gun show.
Am I mistaken in thinking that there are no federal forms to fill out at gun shows?
I just wanna know that if I ever live in a place like San Francisco or D.C., which will confiscate my guns, they won't come for mine because they won't know I have them.
I don't plan on picking up Greensheet or the Thrifty Nickel for gun purchases, but purchasing at a gun show.
Am I mistaken in thinking that there are no federal forms to fill out at gun shows?
gposenti
Am I mistaken in thinking that there are no federal forms to fill out at gun shows?
Well.... yes. There are forms to fill out for most purchases at a gun show. It is my experience that a large majority of dealers at a gun show are FFL and thus, they are required to do a background check on you. Now, there may be a few private sellers at the gun show who are not FFL and who are not required to do a background check on you. Myself, I have never come across one at a gun show who was not an FFL. I have always been required to fill out a form for a background check.
If you do want to purchase from a private seller, then check your area for specialty news papers that sell items in them. In my area, we have one called the Penny Saver and it comes out weekly. People list and sell all manner of items such as furniture, cars, bicycles and, yes, guns. The seller is almost always a private citizen.
Another thing to keep in mind is the dishonest rhetoric used by the press and the anti gun and gun control crowd. They'll make a statement such as this:" At gun shows, there are many unlicensed sellers who have tables or booths set up. These people do not have to run background checks if someone buys a firearm from them". Now, that statement is not false on its face, but it IS very misleading.
Here's why. There are often times "unlicensed" sellers with tables or booths at gun shows. IF they had a gun for sale, they could sell it without a background check. However, most of these "unlicensed" sellers are not selling ANY firearms, period! They are selling military memorabilia, T shirts, magazines, collectibles, knives, military surplus clothing, jewelry, trinkets, etc. They are not there to sell any firearms, period! This is how the left, the gun controllers, the anti gunners, and their willing accomplices in the press, distort the truth in order to scare people who have never been to a gun show and don't know the first thing about how sales of guns are typically handled at gun shows, WITH BACKGROUND CHECKS conducted by the FFLS who sell virtually all of the guns sold at any gun show.
Here's why. There are often times "unlicensed" sellers with tables or booths at gun shows. IF they had a gun for sale, they could sell it without a background check. However, most of these "unlicensed" sellers are not selling ANY firearms, period! They are selling military memorabilia, T shirts, magazines, collectibles, knives, military surplus clothing, jewelry, trinkets, etc. They are not there to sell any firearms, period! This is how the left, the gun controllers, the anti gunners, and their willing accomplices in the press, distort the truth in order to scare people who have never been to a gun show and don't know the first thing about how sales of guns are typically handled at gun shows, WITH BACKGROUND CHECKS conducted by the FFLS who sell virtually all of the guns sold at any gun show.
That's rather disappointing. It's as if the government allows us to own guns, as if they have the inherent right to tell us that we are "allowed" to own guns and protect ourselves. The people "allow" the government to operate.
I don't like it one bit.
I guess I'll just have to resort to buying from an FFL and work on changing the laws.
I don't like it one bit.
I guess I'll just have to resort to buying from an FFL and work on changing the laws.
azredhawk44
Moderator
GPossenti:
I went to a gunshow here in Phoenix to sell a Glock 21 I had grown tired of.
After selling the handgun to a gentleman who's ID (AZ driver's license number) I copied and had sign an affidavit of good standing (not crazy, not dishonorably discharged, not a felon, was a US Citizen, etc), I browsed the goods available.
I saw several tables where private collectors were liquidating firearms. One in particular caught my eye, and I made my purchase.
Some sellers want some assurance of responsible citizenry, others don't. Be fore-warned that they may want a copy of your driver's license, CCW card, or declaration of good intent of some sort.
I went to a gunshow here in Phoenix to sell a Glock 21 I had grown tired of.
After selling the handgun to a gentleman who's ID (AZ driver's license number) I copied and had sign an affidavit of good standing (not crazy, not dishonorably discharged, not a felon, was a US Citizen, etc), I browsed the goods available.
I saw several tables where private collectors were liquidating firearms. One in particular caught my eye, and I made my purchase.
Some sellers want some assurance of responsible citizenry, others don't. Be fore-warned that they may want a copy of your driver's license, CCW card, or declaration of good intent of some sort.
I guess I'll just have to resort to buying from an FFL and work on changing the laws.
There are many ways to purchase a firearm which don't include a gun show and don't include an FFL. There are friends at gun clubs. There are ads in some local newspapers where someone may be selling some guns from a private collection. You may find someone at a gun show, as a previous poster pointed out, that is selling a few firearms but is not "in the business" of selling firearms. I was pointing out that the anti gunners and the media blow that out of proportion by using the term "unlicensed dealers" to include everyone who is not a FFL, but might not be selling firearms either. At most, I repeat, most of the gun shows I've been too, the guys selling firearms are almost all FFL's or "licensed dealers". The people selling everything but firearms are the "unlicensed dealers". The media and the anti gunners are either confused or deliberately misleading when they say that there are "unlicensed dealers" who sell guns at gunshows without background checks. That isn't the norm, although it can happen. Most criminals are NOT getting their guns at gun shows. Same for terrorists.
There are many ways to purchase a firearm which don't include a gun show and don't include an FFL. There are friends at gun clubs. There are ads in some local newspapers where someone may be selling some guns from a private collection. You may find someone at a gun show, as a previous poster pointed out, that is selling a few firearms but is not "in the business" of selling firearms. I was pointing out that the anti gunners and the media blow that out of proportion by using the term "unlicensed dealers" to include everyone who is not a FFL, but might not be selling firearms either. At most, I repeat, most of the gun shows I've been too, the guys selling firearms are almost all FFL's or "licensed dealers". The people selling everything but firearms are the "unlicensed dealers". The media and the anti gunners are either confused or deliberately misleading when they say that there are "unlicensed dealers" who sell guns at gunshows without background checks. That isn't the norm, although it can happen. Most criminals are NOT getting their guns at gun shows. Same for terrorists.
It varies with the area, but there are usually some non FFL sellers
An FFL (Federal Firearms License) is required for all persons "engaging in the business" of dealing in firearms. This is defined administratively by the BATF, but basically it means that someone who deals in guns with the idea of making a living at it needs to be a licensed dealer.
Individuals, even those with large gun collections may sell part, or all of their collection on an ocassional basis without being considered a dealer. I'm not sure of the actual number the Feds might use, but too many guns, and on a regular basis without a license can get you in trouble. There is some leeway, mostly determined by individual situations, and their interpretation of your intent.
You can go to every gun show for months, and sell guns from your collection at each one and not have anything to worry about, but if you are buying guns at a show and turning around and selling them (for a profit) you can run afoul of the law. People have been "entrapped" and charged at gun shows after buying a gun, by having an undercover agent offer them more than they paid for it, and when they sell to him, he busts them for "engaging in the business" without a license. It isn't right, and usually doesn't result in a conviction, it isn't common, but it has been done to people. Your tax dollars at work.
Private (non FFL) gun owners go to gun shows to buy, sell, and trade guns. That's why we have gun shows. FFL dealers at gun shows are under the same rules as they are at their shops. That means filling out the forms and doing the background checks. The so called "gun show loophole" that the anti gun people and pandering politicans want to "close" is nothing more than the legal sale of guns at shows by private parties (non FFL). People selling some of their collection, or one gun trying to sell his deer rifle because he is out of work, to the antis they are all "unlicensed gun dealers". Our historical right to do as we please with our private property is under assault, and if they get their way, the only people at gun shows will be FFL dealers, and real quick the shows will wither and fade. One local show near me will likely go away for good, due to the zealous efforts of the local deptuy DA, who (since it is held on public property) is requireing every seller at the show to hold $1 million in insurance for the durations of the show (3 days). Every seller. Not just the gun sellers, but the people selling jewelry, the people selling t-shirts, even the hot dog guy! The insurance costs a couple of hundred, and many small vendors don't even clear that much profit even when they have a "good" show! So, between table rent, and insurance costs, they are unlikely to make even a handful of dollars for all their time and effort. Loading up everything, spending 6-8 hours Sat & Sun sitting at a table, then take whats' left back, and earn maybe $20 clear? Most folks won't bother anymore. Sad.
Yes, and no. Form 4473s are kept by the dealers, so, yes they are not kept by the government. But they are open to inspection by the BATFE during an investigation, AND, when the dealer goes out of business, ALL the records must be sent to the BATFE, and are kept there, forever.
An FFL (Federal Firearms License) is required for all persons "engaging in the business" of dealing in firearms. This is defined administratively by the BATF, but basically it means that someone who deals in guns with the idea of making a living at it needs to be a licensed dealer.
Individuals, even those with large gun collections may sell part, or all of their collection on an ocassional basis without being considered a dealer. I'm not sure of the actual number the Feds might use, but too many guns, and on a regular basis without a license can get you in trouble. There is some leeway, mostly determined by individual situations, and their interpretation of your intent.
You can go to every gun show for months, and sell guns from your collection at each one and not have anything to worry about, but if you are buying guns at a show and turning around and selling them (for a profit) you can run afoul of the law. People have been "entrapped" and charged at gun shows after buying a gun, by having an undercover agent offer them more than they paid for it, and when they sell to him, he busts them for "engaging in the business" without a license. It isn't right, and usually doesn't result in a conviction, it isn't common, but it has been done to people. Your tax dollars at work.
Private (non FFL) gun owners go to gun shows to buy, sell, and trade guns. That's why we have gun shows. FFL dealers at gun shows are under the same rules as they are at their shops. That means filling out the forms and doing the background checks. The so called "gun show loophole" that the anti gun people and pandering politicans want to "close" is nothing more than the legal sale of guns at shows by private parties (non FFL). People selling some of their collection, or one gun trying to sell his deer rifle because he is out of work, to the antis they are all "unlicensed gun dealers". Our historical right to do as we please with our private property is under assault, and if they get their way, the only people at gun shows will be FFL dealers, and real quick the shows will wither and fade. One local show near me will likely go away for good, due to the zealous efforts of the local deptuy DA, who (since it is held on public property) is requireing every seller at the show to hold $1 million in insurance for the durations of the show (3 days). Every seller. Not just the gun sellers, but the people selling jewelry, the people selling t-shirts, even the hot dog guy! The insurance costs a couple of hundred, and many small vendors don't even clear that much profit even when they have a "good" show! So, between table rent, and insurance costs, they are unlikely to make even a handful of dollars for all their time and effort. Loading up everything, spending 6-8 hours Sat & Sun sitting at a table, then take whats' left back, and earn maybe $20 clear? Most folks won't bother anymore. Sad.
the form you fill out when buying through a store is not a registration and is not kept by the government
Yes, and no. Form 4473s are kept by the dealers, so, yes they are not kept by the government. But they are open to inspection by the BATFE during an investigation, AND, when the dealer goes out of business, ALL the records must be sent to the BATFE, and are kept there, forever.
carguychris
New member
Two other things that I'm surprised nobody has mentioned...
1) Face-to-face sales between non-FFLs must involve residents of the same state. You can't buy out-of-state without an FFL.
2) A private individual can get a special type of FFL called a Curio & Relic (C&R) or "03" license that allows you to buy from out-of-state individuals and through mail order, but ONLY for C&R-qualified firearms, and ONLY if your firearm-buying activities are for "collecting" and "legal sporting purposes", not for a business (see above). A C&R firearm is either a firearm specifically named on the BATF C&R list as being of "historical interest" or anything over 50 years old.
However, if you're buying through the mail from an FFL, they'll ask for a copy of your C&R, so your name goes into a file anyway.
1) Face-to-face sales between non-FFLs must involve residents of the same state. You can't buy out-of-state without an FFL.
2) A private individual can get a special type of FFL called a Curio & Relic (C&R) or "03" license that allows you to buy from out-of-state individuals and through mail order, but ONLY for C&R-qualified firearms, and ONLY if your firearm-buying activities are for "collecting" and "legal sporting purposes", not for a business (see above). A C&R firearm is either a firearm specifically named on the BATF C&R list as being of "historical interest" or anything over 50 years old.
However, if you're buying through the mail from an FFL, they'll ask for a copy of your C&R, so your name goes into a file anyway.