Question about .44 magnum bullet performance

R

Rangerrich99

New member
Mods: if this is in the wrong area, I apologize. I'd appreciate it if you could move it to the appropriate area.

So, a couple weeks ago I went to the range to sight in my .44 mag and then shoot a few reloads to see if my crimps were adequate with full power loads. I shot the Winchester box ammo first and found POI to be about 2 inches high and two inches to the left at 20 yds. The average size group was about 2.5 inches. This was from a bag rest with my elbow supported by another bag.

I made the necessary adjustments to the rear blade sight and started in on my reloads. When I fired the first group with the CFE reloads they shot about 2 inches to the right. During the cease-fire I thought it over and when the range went hot again I adjusted the sights back to center. My next set of CFE reloads went right to POI, about half an inch high and the five-shot group was about 1.1 inches according to the digital calipers. Again all of this was from the bag rest at 20 yds. At that point I was out of CFE reloads so I couldn't test repeatability.

At that point I was out of reloads with about a half box of the Winchester left, so I sent the rest of it downrange. Again, those bullets tended to group high and left of POA with a best group of about 1.5 inches and an average of about 2.5 inches.

My question is this: is this apparent performance variance between these bullets normal? Or is there a good chance this is yet another example of operator error?

At this point, I'm thinking of going with the reloads as my primary ammo for hunting/fishing/camping since they seem more accurate, are apparently faster (which should translate to more energy/penetration?) and seem to exhibit less felt recoil than the factory ammo. But I thought I'd ask for opinions here before committing myself. My other option would be to load Buffalo Bores, but the only bullets I seem to be able to get are 305 grainers, and I'm a little concerned whether my Smith can handle the pressure repeatedly. So, any help here would be greatly appreciated, and thanks in advance for your replies.

Here are the details:

Handgun: Smith and Wesson model 69 revolver .44 magnum 4 inch barrel

Ammunition: Winchester USA 44 Remington Magnum 240 Grain Jacketed Soft Point

Ammunition specs: Velocity - 1180 fps (no indication what length barrel) Energy: 741 ft. lbs.

Reload ammo: Starline brass cases once fired, hard cast 240 grain SWC from Falcon Bullets, 11.6 gr. CFE Pistol powder, Federal Large Magnum Pistol Primers. Estimated velocity - 1299 fps from 8 inch bbl (I don't have a chronograph as yet, so I'm just going by the hodgdon pistol data center)
 
I've been reloading for the .44mag for quite a few years now and can tell you that factory ammo has a tendency to be a little less accurate that reloads. Mainly because you have adjustablity with reloads that you just can't get with factory rounds. For example, I shoot a ton of cast 240gr SWC's in my .44's. I can "normally" get just a slightly, and I do mean slightly, better group with a lead bullet. I can also tell you, you don't need a .44 running almost 1300ish fps for it to be effective. I usually run mine around 850-900fps including my 240gr XTP's for deer and 300gr XTP's for hogs. Its kinda like the people you hear about that has this or that rifle caliber thats running 3-3500fps. You don't need that much speed for it to be effective. Slowing a round down in some cases will result in better bullet performance.
 
Thanks for the reply. I'm pretty sure my bullets weren't going 1300 fps, as my barrel is only a 4-incher, while the test barrel was an 8.25-incher. I don't know how much velocity I lost with a barrel half as long, but I'm guessing it's significant. But that also means that the Winchesters weren't going anywhere near 1100 fps either, as they probably used a longer test barrel as well.

I know jacketed bullets need more pressure than a lead bullet to be launched downrange, and that lead bullets tend to take more spin from rifling than jacketed. i just didn't expect to see such a large variance at such a short range.

So, can I correctly surmise that the better accuracy from the reloads was due to either the increase in velocity? Or bullet material? Or both? None of the above?
 
you may want to review this you may find clues to the issue. I've reloaded 44 Mag for almost 40 years and they tend to be consistent with little variation. I agree with the other post there is little value in max loads. Just additional wear on the firearm and you. At some point you or your firearm will pay the price if you shoot enough. I load for both pistol and rifle in 44 mag.
 
Hmm. Just finished reading that other thread. So if I understand you correctly, you believe that it's operator error, specifically trigger control.

Well, guess I'll head back to the range this week and let one of the range officers try it out. If he gets the gun to shoot down the middle, I guess it'd pretty much have to be me.

I'll be surprised if he/she shoots those Winchesters and doesn't get the same results though. I'm not saying I'm an expert by any means, but I have worked very hard over the years to become proficient at DA revolver trigger control. And all of the revolvers I've owned over the years have been magnums, so it's not as if I'm not familiar with the recoil.

But who knows? Might as well give it a shot, so to speak.
 
Well, guess I'll head back to the range this week and let one of the range officers try it out. If he gets the gun to shoot down the middle, I guess it'd pretty much have to be me.
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You're overthinking it all.

Every load will be a little different whether it's factory or your reloads
That doesn't mean it's better or worse, but only different.

You should decide what you expect the load to do (hunting, target, etc) then select a bullet that will give you the terminal performance needed with the charge that gives the most accuracy.

You don't need high pressure 300 gr loads unless you're hunting or defending against bears

Don't worry at all about POI until you settle on a particular load for a specific purpose
Group size and velocities make more difference when testing
 
In a handgun, due to barrel dwell, slower bullets with more recoil will shoot higher than faster bullets with less recoil. This could explain why the Winchester factory loads shot higher than your reloads, if indeed they were slower and had more recoil.

As for overall accuracy, it could be the ammo, the operator or a combination of both. Group size is more of a indication of accuracy. If you can adjust the sights so POI is the same as POA, and once adjusted the gun shoots to POA every trip to the range, you are good to go. If the gun shoots to POA with the first shot/shots and then POI drifts high and left as you shoot, you are anticipating recoil.
 
With pistols, the higher the velocity, the lower the point of impact. You can't buy ammo off the shelf and expect it to shoot in the same place as the last box.

Accuracy is how consistant they are, how close they all shoot in to the same place, group size, not how close they come to the intended target.

Bullet selection is one of the greatest factors with accurracy. I don't know what bullet was in the factory ammo you tried.

With .44 magnun good quality cast 240gr SWC are a great choice for accurracy. (cast bullest from different mfgs are NOT equal) The Hornady 240gr XTP is very accurrate, and a super hunting bullet if you decide to go that route. I shoot both over the same charge, and they both hit the target in the same place, so I can target practice with much cheaper SWCs, and use XTPs for hunting.

You'll also find that right powders and charge combined with the right bullets will make huge differences in accuracy. I'm not familiar with CFE powder, so I don't have an opinion on it beyond the fact that it doesn't come up that often in discussion of great 44 mag powders. It's usually Unique with medium velocity cast bullets, and 296, 110, 4227, or 2400 for top velocity magnum loads.
 
The answer to your bolded question is, yes. And to the second part, maybe, but based on what you said, I think not so much, in this case.

Differences in POI height: Handguns begin to recoil before the bullet leaves the barrel. When the bullet leaves the muzzle, the muzzle is already on its way up. The sooner the bullet get out of the barrel (higher MV) the "lower" on the target it prints.

Right or Left of POA: This is trickier. IT CAN BE THE SHOOTER, alone. OR it can be the gun & ammo combination, without any shooter error. Or it could be a combination of both.

Based on same shooter, same gun, same sight setting, one load shooting left, and the other shooting POA is the gun/load combination, not shooter error. Most likely.
 
Thanks for the replies, gents. So I think I'm going to test some MagTech semi-jacketed bullets just to be sure, but otherwise I'm pretty sure the falcon bullets over the CFE Pistol powder are going to end up being my camp/bear/cat defense bullets. Imr4227 might be the runner-up, we'll see after the next range test later this week.

A couple of side notes: Apparently, I didn't make myself clear in the first post: I'm definitely not about shooting the hottest fastest loads just for giggles. Probably 95% of the .44 mag rounds I've shot since I started reloading have been very mild; basically .44 special loads in mag cases. I just wanted to see if I could develop some full power loads with a few different powders, and compare them performance-wise against a factory-loaded bear load bullet. As of that initial test, the top two powders are CFE pistol and imr4227; the CFE uses a lot less powder, but the 4227 probably had the least felt recoil at similar estimated velocities.

Also my crimp was only partially effective, as 3 rounds showed evidence of the bullets creeping a little from the case mouth. I've picked up a Lee factory crimp die in .44; anyone have any tips for using this thing?
 
I'm no help with the Lee crimp die, never used one. Over 4 decades of reloading, never had any problems correctly adjusting Lyman or RCBS standard dies for a proper crimp.

You have a light (for caliber) revolver, which makes crimp jump happen even easier. Heavy (for caliber) bullets will only add to the effect. If you are having issues with a given load with a 240gr you will have worse ones with a 300gr bullet.

A crimp that holds fine in a heavy gun, can suffer bullet jump when the same ammo is fired in a light revolver.

There is always a bit of trial and error finding the right amount for your particular gun and load.

Good Luck!
 
I've picked up a Lee factory crimp die in .44; anyone have any tips for using this thing?
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I'd trim all the brass to the same length and use a good roll crimp

Taper crimps are fine in semi's where you can't use a roll crimp, but won't hold as well in the heavy loads

I'd also try some Hornady XTP's in a couple of different weights
 
I have been shooting the 44 since the early 80's and back then quite a bit more than now. I averaged close to if not exceeded 2-300 rounds a week which isn't much by some standards but with full tilt loads it was enough for me.

I have also had the 41 magnum in there with it along with several others. In recent years I have added in the 45 Colt and 454. I also began casting my own about 5yrs back and have been slowly working through each of these revolvers and finding the loads I want to use in them.

When I work on loads, I do not adjust anything, and can tell you that if you have three different loads you can have three different POI's. Just like rifles, just because you point it where YOU want it to hit doesn't necessarily mean that it will. Once you find something that shoots a nice tight group and is in the velocity range your looking for THEN adjust your sights. However the caveat is, if you shoot from a rested position, you can still be off quite a bit once you start shooting freehand. You simply do not respond to the recoil the same when benched down as you do when everything is free to move around.

I will echo the following 100%,

Snyper
Quote:
I've picked up a Lee factory crimp die in .44; anyone have any tips for using this thing?
I'd trim all the brass to the same length and use a good roll crimp

Taper crimps are fine in semi's where you can't use a roll crimp, but won't hold as well in the heavy loads

I'd also try some Hornady XTP's in a couple of different weights
Today 12:19 AM
44 AMP I'm no help with the Lee crimp die, never used one. Over 4 decades of reloading, never had any problems correctly adjusting Lyman or RCBS standard dies for a proper crimp.

You have a light (for caliber) revolver, which makes crimp jump happen even easier. Heavy (for caliber) bullets will only add to the effect. If you are having issues with a given load with a 240gr you will have worse ones with a 300gr bullet.

A crimp that holds fine in a heavy gun, can suffer bullet jump when the same ammo is fired in a light revolver.

There is always a bit of trial and error finding the right amount for your particular gun and load.

Good Luck!
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I see tons of folks who mention never trimming handgun brass. I wonder to myself if they were ever really concerned with the best accuracy they could get or if they just felt that a handgun was never meant for accuracy. I can and will say, most revolvers and auto's as well, will shoot better than 90% of the people who pull the triggers, but you will never pull that accuracy out of them if you do not try. Consistent crimps DO effect groups, I have said it before and will repeat it from now on. You cannot have consistent crimps with brass that isn't the same length. Taper crimping, yes you can get by with some this length and some that lenght, roll crimping one is real tight one isn't, and that is how it goes. The problem is you are probably better off with something that is only good and snug since the case neck tension does 90% of the holding.

Here is a post I added to and in it are some links you will find useful if your looking to squeeze out the most from your revolver. The main picture was taken of some groups shot through a 41 but the same principal applies across the board even with my 454. You simply don't need as much crimp as most think they need.
Crimping .454 Casull (Original Title)

As for the Lee factory crimp die, I used one when I first started to load for my 45 ACP. After loading about three or so boxes of ammo with it I put it away, far away, and haven't had an issue since.
 
"are apparently faster (which should translate to more energy/penetration?) and seem to exhibit less felt recoil than the factory ammo"
Without a chronograph this is only an assumption. Seldom does higher velocity and lower recoil fall together.
 
If you notice less recoil with a given load it is a lesser load period. It all comes down to that Newtons law....for any action there is an equal and opposite reaction so you had better feel strong recoil. I have .44 mag loads that I loaded 20 some years ago. I do not shoot it much any more just enough to know that I am hitting wher I am aiming as to many 240 grain SWCs and 22.7 grains of 296 will start to hurt if you shoot too many.
 
Rangerrich99 said:
So, can I correctly surmise that the better accuracy from the reloads was due to either the increase in velocity? Or bullet material? Or both? None of the above?
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None of the above. The better accuracy of your handloads is mostly due to better consistency in powder charge, bullet seating, and crimping.

Differences in point of impact v. point of aim are a function of velocity and bullet weight.
 
Winchester box ammo first and found POI to be about 2 inches high and two inches to the left at 20 yds.
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I made the necessary adjustments to the rear blade sight and started in on my reloads.
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When I fired the first group with the CFE reloads they shot about 2 inches to the right. I adjusted the sights back to center.
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My next set of CFE reloads went right to POI,
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At that point I was out of reloads with about a half box of the Winchester left, so I sent the rest of it downrange. Again, those bullets tended to group high and left of POA with a best group of about 1.5 inches and an average of about 2.5 inches.
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You made sight adjustments and changed the cartridge at the same time. Sighting something in is about being consistent. Left then right then left again. Slow your roll and be consistent the same round and the same hold as you make your adjustments. Once you are on target and have a baseline then you can make changes to see how they effect your pistol. If you make a change for a specific cartridge then when you return to the baseline cartridge you should expect it to be off by the amount of adjustment you made and it should be easy to undo the changes and return to zero.

Just slow down and be consistent. Constant change is a fools paradise trying to find the "holy grail" the perfect bullet. Find the bullet that you shoot well handle the recoil and is comfortable for what you expect. Zero it in and shoot it well. Set realistic expectations for your skill level.

This can be time consuming so take the time the process takes don't rush it.
My baselines are part of multiple trips to the range on a number of days. I am also very slow in sight adjustments. Example 5 groups of 5 shots in the same place will trigger an adjustment. Some days I'll go and be off target. I'll go home and think about what I did wrong sometimes something as small as a cup of coffee will throw me off. I have a stock of baseline bullets. When I have to make more I compare the new to the old baselines at the range.

Good luck and take your time.
 
You cannot have consistent crimps with brass that isn't the same length.
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Actually, you can. But it is a LOT more work. You can do it, but you need to adjust the die for each INDIVIDUAL round. Or you can sort them by length, and then just adjust the die for each batch. Either way, its more work.

I rarely trim pistol brass, but I check length every time. Rarely means infrequently, because I don't need to do it often. My experience is that pistol brass does not stretch like rifle brass does. (I think .45ACP might actually shrink. ;)) Some calibers do stretch some don't ever seem to.

Trim a batch of brass once, for uniformity. Then keep an eye on case lengths. Some calibers and loads won't stretch to any meaningful degree over their entire useful life. Others, you might need to trim a time or two before they finally fail. Tons of variables, your results might be much different.
 
Trim a batch of brass once, for uniformity
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That's what I always do and rarely need to trim a second time on handgun rounds.

I'll never understand those who post complaining about inconsistant results, but go on to say they are using mixed brass or that it was never trimmed
 
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