Quality

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NateKirk

New member
So at work I've been hearing how Remington's quality has been going down for the past few years, there's a thread going on now of people needing to send their Ruger revolvers back for work and adjustment, and I've had customers call me back on what to do with their Marlin's fitting problems. Kimber I've also heard is on a downhill slide from what they were.

I'm not rich enough to try everything myself, so to some extent I must go off the words of others, however nothing I hear is positive. It seems like the general culture shift of cheap and mass produced at the cost of quality is affecting what I thought were old standbys in the firearms industry.

Who makes quality stuff nowadays? Who doesn't deserve their reputation? Who makes complete garbage? Your thoughts and experiences please
 
While Ruger has had a few growing pains of late, they are still at the top of my list when it comes to quality firearms at reasonable prices.
 
From the guns I have and have had, I think most of the guns made today are better than back in the "good old days". Back in the "good old days" when there was a problem with a gun, it was resolved locally and not broadcast all over the world through the internet. It's like crime statistics. Even though crime is down over the last 25 years, it appears that crime is up because it is broadcast worldwide and years ago, a murder or other crime stayed local. Of all the new guns I have bought (7 or 8) since 2000, I had a minor problem with one.
 
German made Walthers, (P99, P99c, PPQ, PPS)not the Umarex models (P22, PK380, CCP)are top notch and a great value. HK is great, and Sig for the most part though they had a down turn for a bit.
 
What were those growing pains exactly?
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I think the huge successes of the last few years has caused their quality control to suffer a bit. I would be far more concerned if I wasn't confident that anything slipping through the cracks with be taken care of in a timely and professional way.
 
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I am trying to remember the last time I had to return a US made gun to the factory for a manufacturing defect either new or used.

That would be never.

The only time I came even close was with a Jennings that I bought decades ago when that was the only CC pistol I could afford. It had issues but it still functioned perfectly. I ended up selling it for twice what I paid for it.

There was another gun made by a defunct manufacturer that I would have liked to have returned but could not since they had gone under. Seems the market self selected.

Hard to say how many guns I have owned; bought and sold over the years. I am going to say it is way more than most people. Sure stuff breaks, sure no one wants a "Monday Gun"; but I think the problems are overstated.

For now the US has the best market for consumers in the world. Most parts of the world your warranty expires the second you hand over your money. Consumer product protection simply does not exist. Some countries criticizing the seller or manufacturer can get you locked up.
 
Most of the complaints you read are about aesthetics. Back in the 1970's a top of the line Remington 700 BDL sold new for about $200-$225. Factoring in for the much higher wages earned today and inflation that gun should sell for over $1000. But you can buy it for under $800. In 2016 you can buy more gun, for a smaller percentage of your income than at any other time since I've been alive. But shooters are choosing to buy more quantity rather than more quality. Manufacturers build what sells.

The $800 rifles sit on the shelves while people buy the budget versions for $300; and then they complain that the $300 gun they bought isn't as well finished as the one grandpa paid $200 for. People don't seem to understand that you can't pay 1970 prices and pay the guys who build the products 2016 wages.

The Remington trigger issues have been a problem since the 1940's. The mass communication we have today including the internet have made people aware. The quality in many ways is much better, but people years ago were blissfully ignorant of many of the problems. I don't believe that quality is down at all, in fact I believe it is better. The internet as magnified some issues.

Guns have always come from the factory with issues. But returning them to the factory is a fairly new concept. Years ago all gun manufacturers had certified repair shops scattered all over the country. You took you gun to a local smith who did the work and he was reimbursed by the manufacturer. Or you did it yourself or just lived with it.

Up until 20-25 years ago ALL 1911's needed serious work right out of the box to function. Kimber is often criticized, but even their worst guns were better than a typical Colt from the 1970's or 80's and the majority work just fine. Current Kimber rifles are often criticized for poor accuracy when the real problem is that only a handful of people have the skills to shoot a 5 lb rifle accurately. Smith & Wesson revolvers of the 70's and 80's are nothing to brag about.
 
In my view an occasional fitting problem or small blemish on a low end gun can be expected. The issue with Remington is they have major functionality safety and reliability issues on many of their guns. The R51 is a prime example as are the issues with the 700 series rifles high end or low. many of these issues are still not resolved. These issues extend over many models and types of guns they make.

The issues with Ruger are limited to a given model and Ruger is resolving it in a timely fashion.

All suppliers can have an issue it's how the resolve it and how timely they resolve it.

My recent Colts, Springfield, Ruger, Walther and Sig purchases have all been high quality and reliable. I had an issue with a 20 year old Ruger. I called them and they resolved it by overnighting a part for free. They offered to repair it for free if I sent it in. They even offered to pay shipping. Problem resolution can be as important as initial quality.
 
If you are only concerned with a low price, you will receive the quality you pay for - low quality.

Sometimes it is better to buy once, cry once and buy top quality. What good is a $200 gun with a "lifetime" warranty if you are sending it back for repairs every other month?
 
It's a legitimate question in my opinion op but I don't have an answer. I have S&W's (one that had to be sent back for warranty work), Ruger's, Colt, Winchester for I guess would be my "high end" firearms. On the "low end", I have a couple of Rossi's, Heritage Arms and a dreaded Phoenix Arms HP22. The low end guns have been very reliable for me and just a lot of fun.
I don't know, I guess I just buy what I think I will like.
 
Although I know longer have one, I agree. My Glock just seemed to scream, go ahead, do your worse to me, I can take it. I might have to get another one someday.
 
I think I've had better luck with used guns than new, simply because I tend to look them over better before I buy.

I have had factory defects with firearms even back in the day when a lot of you would consider the "good ol' days".

I don't recall having a complete lemon that I couldn't fix or deal with though. Some guys seem to get nothing but lemons though. jd
 
I doubt that quality has degraded significantly compared to where it was years ago, but internet whining makes it seem that way. Fourty years ago one had to spend $4-500 for a decent deer rifle and spend another $2-300 for decent optics. Today rifles for $350 shoot circles around those same firearms and entry level optics are as good if not better than those upper tier scopes of 40 years ago. Folks that once thought of a single gun as an lifetime investment, now want a whole closet full for under $2000 and then complain because they all don't have perfect high luster bluing and high grade walnut stocks. They buy a $500 revolver and complain because the Satin stainless finish doesn't reflect their image. Ruger and other major manufacturers are puttin' out more guns than ever before and are standing behind them better than ever. Those of us gettin the occasional lemon have a much better chance of getting a satisfactory fix than ever before. Still, we do like to whine........
 
I don't recall having a complete lemon that I couldn't fix or deal with though. Some guys seem to get nothing but lemons though. jd
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I have noticed over many years that the people who get "lemons" over and over again seem to be the same people who get "lemons" on other mechanical things. I'm 69 and have been in the car business in one way or the other since high school. I learned early on that you do not want to sell a car to certain people because they are going to bring it back over and over because of things that "break" or things they are never happy with. My brother has a body shop and there are several former customers he will not do work for for any reason. I have a neighbor that has had 5 or 6 new chain saws (more expensive than mine) since I bought mine and he currently does not have one that functions (I have been using mine for him). He is not on his 3rd new John Deere lawn tractor in the last 15 years while I have a good 98 model I bought used and just gave my daughter my 88 model (318) that is still good.

The people that gets lemons after lemons are sometimes the same people that could tear up an anvil with a rubber hammer.
 
FWIW, contrary to what the OP has heard, I think Kimber makes decent quality stuff.

Sig makes some fine handguns.
S&W makes some very nice revolvers.
Korth makes some excellent, but over-priced revolvers.
STI makes decent handguns
Sphinx makes/made really nice handguns
CZ makes some decent handguns
Tanfoglio makes some really nice handguns (their higher quality line)
 
Years ago I bought a Remington 40-X in 22-250 a custom shop gun .It came in time and had a very long chamber The bullets never world set to the rifling and later after I got it back I never could make it shoot . I set the 40-X I the safe and bought a heavy barrel Rem 700 PSS in 223 it shot very well out of the box .

The 700 PSS cost 25 % of the 40-X and shot 200% better
 
KEYBEAR, I used to have FFL and I was a dealer for Rem 40-X rifles and they came with test targets and loading data from the custom shop. T.hey didn't sell me direct but I called and ordered them.
 
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