Qualifying for CCW? What the heck!?! (rant)

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My home state of Pennsylvania is quite laxed when it comes to CCW. Fortunately, myself and fellow shooters do not have to go throug hell to get a permit. The unfortunate side to this is, any Joe with trembling hands and half a neuron left in his brain can attain a permit.
There are no training qualifications. No time at ranges. All you have to do is go to the County Sheriff's Office, fill out the form, submit proof of address and driver's license. Then wait 4-6 weeks for them to do a background check. You then get a card in the mail to come in to pick up your CCW. The new procedure now includes a digital piture taken at time of pickup. The new CCW looks like a driver's license. You don't even need to own a handgun to apply and get your permit.
It's a great process for intelliget gun owners. However, the idiot you were trying to help at the range Dave, can attain his permit with NO RANGE TIME. Scary huh?

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Svt
NRA, GOA, VFW
Son's Place

Rangers Lead the Way
 
I was at an indoor range the other day teaching my youngest daughter how to shoot. I do believe it was the first time I ever was frightened in there.
They were having the shooters shoot at a full size target that was hanging down so low that the rounds were passing thru and hitting the concrete at the 10 mtr line. I swear that they were getting richochets, but where they were going was anyones guess.
I think the next time I get caught around a CCW class I am going to leave. I will argue with the business about how much I owe when I get out of danger. :mad:
 
Remarkable, how we compare in IN all one has to do is know how to write his own name and address. No gun safety course, Its a trip to the local police wait 2 weeks then after you get approved you send of to the state police and you usually get in back in 2-3 weeks. Oh the major thing is you can't have any prior convictions, but if you do you have convictions you probably carry a gun anyways.
 
I have seen my share of incompetent shooters out there...but I'd rather have a few incompetents than a known abusive authority deciding who gets permits and who doesn't...
 
you know, I almost feel bad about not taking more time to demonstrate some simple skills, but I was just there to shoot.
I think it might be a good idea to tie CCW requirements into the NRA. Simple gun safety course and test before issuing. The NRA might be little more willing to stick to it's guns and not let unsafe people slip through the test because well, "they are paying me"
Thr rangemaster could have easily said "you guys aren't safe" and sent them back to class, but he was clearly uncomfortable about doing that, because it means more time out of him, and an inconvenience for the "customer".
If these guys got through the system here, it is indeed unnerving to imagine who's out there in areas with no real requirements.
Doesn't this sort of thing fall into the NRA's balliwick? It is after all, a matter of firearms training.
Remember, with a Right, comes a Responsibility. There is no separating the two.

[This message has been edited by Dave AA (edited February 08, 2000).]
 
Dave AA

I know where your coming from. I'm an Instructor and they scare the hell out of me.

I'm not real popular with the "Right to keep and bear arms" crowd. I've seen Joe Average with a gun. One of my big fears is being in a convenience store during a robbery and some little old lady who took a class at a gunshow, packin' a .44 Magnum in her handbag, decides it's her "right" to play Dirty Harry. I'd probably shoot her before the robber.

I personally would prefer that CCW permit holders having to qualify yearly with their carry gun(s). Use the same course of fire that Police have to qualify on. Don't pass . . . . Don't carry.

As an example, we had a CCW permit holder that tried to intervene in a bad guys shootout with the Police. He was so inept that he shot his own car three times trying to take his 1911 out of it's holster. The only reason an officer didn't shoot him, not knowing our hero wasn't a bad guy, was the pistol's slide locked to the rear. The officer tackled him instead.

John Hollister
CCW permit holder in FL, NH, UT and AZ

[This message has been edited by John Hollister (edited February 09, 2000).]
 
Well folks.... it's just like I told a lady who was signing her 15 yrs. old son up for my safety class. She had commented about some uncles & other family members hunting and shooting, but her or her husband had no experience. The son was getting into it because of friends.

"Grandpa, or Uncle Joe can teach/show him how they do it, but nothing takes the place of quality formal instruction."

I don't toot the horn of our Federal Gov't too many times, but when they developed the standardized Firearms Safety Course in 1994 they finally did something right in relation to firearms legislation. (you can take the first half of the class with me and go somewhere else in the country and speak a different language to take the second half and go up north to the Inuit communities and take the test - the results "should" be the same)

I like the graduated licence idea mentioned before. Qualify for a specific action and range of caliber. (who he is "licenced" to drive a semi???? & how long did it take??)

Remember... People will not rise to the occassion.... they'll only default to their level of training. (example, Homer Simpson in a stressful situation, picture him running)

For those who don't agree with a required knowledge base, law, use of force, and marksmanship.... call your local county prosecutor and have a five minute Q&A game of What If... (complete with charges, trial, and sentencing) I guarantee you'll walk away looking for some formal training.

Stay Safe, Shoot Smart

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Be Safe, Be Trained

Life is tough...it's alot tougher if you don't know how to shoot.
 
Hey John, I help run our IDPA Matches and there are two kinds of shooters 1/ "I want to shoot this as a "training" session" or 2/ "this is kind of fun and I like doing it, as long as I don't shoot myself" The later is as a gun game. Our position is, not to push anyone away from the sport as long as they haven't done any thing unsafe. If it takes five minutes to complete a stage that would take me 23 seconds, so be it. Was he safe??? Did he have fun???? That's what it's all about.

(No flame was intended)

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Be Safe, Be Trained

Life is tough...it's alot tougher if you don't know how to shoot.
 
Greyfox: IMO he did the right thing. If she was safe why will she need to shoot at 25yds?? It is much more important that she know how to load, unload, fire and hit the target. And most important is that she know how to avoid having to shoot. I would much rather have her armed then the 22yr old "rambo" or some others mentioned here.
Accuracy is not a real big deal for CCW. I would think the possiblity that a person would have to make a self-defense shot at 25yds is below winning the lottery. "That is after the odds of being involved in a shooting" As I recall most are under 10ft. I like the idea of having to pass a NRA safety course or ANY other organized training.
It would be best if everyone would take firearms safety in Jr High.
Become a range officer or firearms safety instructor. Then you can teach safety.
 
The right to bear arms is constitutionally guaranteed. That having been said, the right to recklessly endanger others is not. It is the responsibility of the instructor not to sign off on someone who is a danger to others as well as themselves. That is why these folks have been given their qualifications and liscense to instruct and sign those certificates. If we do not police ourselves then the police will. I think that is part of the reason we are to the point we are now. Instructors, think of it as a sacred trust. I want every citizen qualified to carry a handgun to carry one. The operative word is qualified. How to determine what "qualified" is- well that is the $64,000 question isn't it? That is why you get paid the big bucks! :) Just my 2 cents.
 
In a perfect USA, Vermont-style carry would be the rule.

Forcing training and waiting periods on folks is wrong, eriod.

Having said that, I've for sure seen unsafe gun handling. In my perfect USA, training with something like a .22 would be a highly encouraged elective in school.

In my town, the LEs have ranges and the citizens have none. Why can't these ranges be opened up to the public (for a fee) and have the local government provide training?
 
In a perfect USA, I could slap a guy in the head for pointing a loaded weapon at me.
(or perhaps challenge him to a duel ;))

John: re little old lady
Hee hee, I would probably take a shot at the robber, and then run like hell!

needanak:
If I may lift a bit from ak9,
"The right to bear arms is constitutionally guaranteed. That having been said, the right to recklessly endanger others is not"
"If we do not police ourselves then the police will."
If that doesn't reach you, nothing else will likely do so.
 
never said anything about reckless behaviour being acceptable. just that mandated training or organization membership makes a right a privilidge.
 
Wanna hear something really scarey? Kalifornia does not require range testing for it's CCW holders/applicants :eek: In fact, what training is required is left up to the issuing agency. In my county, the sheriff requires a 4 hour class, which can be summed up in 20-30 minutes. Next county over, requires 16 hours including rangetime & fairly difficult qualifying. Next county over don't require no training at all(cuz they don't issue). The way I see it, the issuing authority could be held responsible in civil suites arising from "Homer" types if they didn't require some kind of qualifying.
 
Tecolote, this may be construed as pi$$ing in the punch, but the 2nd Amendment also includes the phrase "well-regulated militia." An ignorant fool with a gun endangering those around through carelessness is not well-regulated. With the right to bear comes the responsibility to bear responsibly. Buying a gun doesn't make someone a part of the militia. Buying a gun and then training with it and learning what the responsibilities are does.
 
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