Qualifying for CCW? What the heck!?! (rant)

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Dave AA

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Does anyone here work as a rangemaster or at a range where people shoot to qualify? I just got back from a range where 3 poeple were shooting to qualify, and Oh My Lord! I truly, truly, hope these people never have to fire a shot. I hope they put the gun away, and never touch it again. Some people just shouldn't handle handguns. The rangemaster was trying to correct them, I was trying to correct them because I don't like loaded weapons pointed at me with a finger on the trigger, all to no avail.

These jokers just can't learn, follow directions, or think. When they did fire, at 15 yards, Half the rounds were on the paper in a random pattern. At THREE YARDS they couldn't keep it inside the 7 ring!! Finally, between me and the rangemaster, we got them to fire off the required # of rounds in the time limit, and got them off the range.

One gentleman managed to jam his Glock twice. Both times he just said "it's stuck" and looked at me to do something about it. For the sake of time, I just cleared it and gave it back to him. After the second time, I stayed on his shoulder and watched him fire. He was limp-wristing so badly, everytime he fired, the gun would twist clockwise OVER 45 DEGREES!! No wonder it jammed. I'm sure he will now badmouth Glocks to everyone who will listen: "durn thing jams all the time" What a crock. I don't know how he managed to get 30% of his rounds on the paper, the way his hand was shaking. I know he couldn't have been using the sights.

I think the rangemaster did flunk one of them, the one I voted "most likely to kill himself or a school bus full of nuns".

Yes, we did our best to explain some fundamentals, but it was like screaming into a vacuum.
Me: "lock your wrist" (demonstrates)
Joker: "ok" (grips the gun with all the force of Mother Theresa)
Me: " DO NOT close the cylinder until you are in your stall"
Joker#2 "ok" (closes cylinder, and puts finger on trigger, and points it at my leg while waiting to get on range)
Me: "What the F**K! give me that gun!"
These are just a couple of examples. It went on ad nauseum.

Very tiring. I was relieved to see them leave.
Ok, I feel better. Rant off.
 
Holy sh*t!!
Reading your post scares the crap out of me. You know, it makes me want to cry knowing that these jokers live in a state where they can be given the OK & responsibility to carry a handgun. In my state (IL) we can't, due to the utter stupidity, full-o-sh*t bias & beliefs, and boneheaded fears of our gracious and exhalted elected leaders.
What should be mandatory in your state and any other CCW state is a hard and enforced rule of a certain number of hours of overseen practice and proficiency with a handgun. Man, I can only shake my head in disbelief of what you experienced. But, thanks for your efforts in straightening those jokers out.
 
I've gotten really nervous going to the ranges lately. I can't stand going when it's crowded. It just scares me thinking about the number of new gunners out there who don't seem to have any common sense. Loaded guns pointed right at me. Waving them around when talking. Fingers on the trigger when loading. It's insane!

There's no rangemaster to warn them and kick them out if they don't follow rules. There's only a simple waiver form to fill out...

Go when it's not crowded or where you're the instructor.
Ben

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AOL IM: BenK911
ICQ # 53788523
"Gun Control Is Being Able To Hit Your Target"
 
Dave,

When I was training CCW the State required a minimum of 8 hours training. The Class myself and other gave averaged to almost double that. With the first half "book" and the second half dedicated to the range.

The students had to pass not only a written test after the "book" portion(firearms questions, laws, mind set, color code, etc) but also, not only the State mandated Qual course, both instructors had to agree that we would want them CCWing.

If we didn't the student had a choice of a refund or further training (at no cost). All took the training (attendance at the next class with one on one instruction (by the instructor that didn't think they made the grade) while the other gave the "book" class.

Both myself and the other instructor can honestly say that we never signed off on someone that we didn't feel was unqualified to CCW.

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Schmit
GySgt, USMC(Ret)
NRA Life, Lodge 1201-UOSSS
"Si vis Pacem Para Bellum"
 
Not to flame, but where in the phrase "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed" does the word training appear? We may not like the fact that not everyone that carries is 100% proficient, but the last we need is to start advocating more restrictions.

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So many pistols, so little money.
 
Man that is real scary! Here in Ga.,all you have to do is pay your fee and pass the background check and they will issue a you license with no formal training at all.I have spent many hours on the range over the years and have seen similar things here.Thats why i spent a little extra time searching for the one i go to, as it is a range where most everyone knows each other.I do agree we need some kind of formal training here in Ga. just from what ive seen , or atleast a primer on the use of deadly force here .As it is right now you get your license and that is it nada!!!!!!!
 
In response to Tecolote.hey man dont take this the wrong way but taking a course is not a restriction or a infringement .It will help the ccw permit holdermore if he fully understands the right of when he can and cannot use deadly force.To not know for sure is like dancing on ice ,I see nothing wrong with the idea of having a class to help newbies out ,not everyone has been carrying a gun for years .Besides as these other guys have pointed out also just take a look around at the way most people carry them selves at the range .That will scare the hell out of any one ! That my 2 cents
 
Yes agree that sometimes going to the range can very nerve racking. The last time I went to the unsupervised public range three young men showed up with serious hardware, too serious for people their age. One of them had an H&K93, another a CAR15 and the third what looked like an AK74 and assorted pistols. They were blasting away with little respect for targets or anything else. I just down, kept an eye on them, and prepared for the worst. Yet who was I to judge these fellows? Were they rude? Yes. Could they stand to learn proper handling? Yes. Yet I couldn't help thinking that the alternative would be worse, no firearms for anyone.

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So many pistols, so little money.
 
Same problem here in Fla.

And don't forget that we have a great number of Senior .
Nothing against them, but when the hearing goes and the eye sight gets bad, and the hand shakes......!
I don't even think of going to the range on
Weekends.
What scares me about the entire situation, is that these people THINK that they will be safe at home, when in reality they can't hit the target!!!
But as it goes....it's part of being free!!
To bad that the test is not more professional and standardized in all Staes.
Maybe one day?
 
Guys, maybe I'm just fanatical or something, or maybe I'm too pro-gun (If there is such a thing) but IMHO I believe that everyone should be trained in how a gun is handled, even if they never learn how to aim, but all should be taught what never to do, and how to be safe. Should be an elementary class or something. (5th grade maybe?) Personally, My Dad taught me when I was 4 years old.
I also believe that CCW is BS. Anyone should be able to own, and carry any weapon, short of weapons of mass detruction, anyway and anytime they want. (Not to say someone should pack an AK to the pres.'s state of the union address, but you know what I mean)
Just my opinion.
 
I have taught hunter's safety and trained handgun shooters for over 20 years. Many of my students are as young as 12 years old and we do live fire with black powder, center fire rifle, center fire handgun, and rimfire rifle.

The key here is I train, teach, and coach, not bitch, whine and complain. I have my students in class for many, many hours before we hit the range. Sure, I get nervous at the range and it can be scary. Still, my job is to get my students to be proficient. On occasion, I have failed people and sent them home. When I have had to do that, I remain calm and professional and inform them of the correctives they need in order to return. I tell them they are welcome to go through the course again and I always try to make the experience a positive one even in the worst situation.
 
I'm not in favor of restricting gun ownership, within ones' home or car, to those who are mentally-emotionally competent & lack felony convictions.
That said, I believe those who wish to have CCW permits should be held to relatively high standards of judgement, knowledge of the appropriate use of deadly force, marksmanship-on-demand-within-a-given-time-frame, and demonstrated safe gun-handling, preferably for the calibers they can demonstrate competence with. (Analogous to the issuance of motorcycle operators' licences in a number of states, if you can demonstrate competence with a large-displacement-engine motorcycle, you're allowed to operate MCs of that size range and smaller; Those who can demonstrate competence with, say, a .45 ACP pistol could carry .45 ACP, .40 S&W, 9 mm, etc.) Who should decide such issues of competency is a separate issue, and admittedly a difficult one. With the ability to launch rounds downrange fast, though, SOME sort of competency test would seem reasonable to me. Again, I'm NOT in favor of "Gun Restriction", and if no truly workable solution were able to be found, I'd rather have anyone & everyone carrying sidearms than have arbitrary restrictions, since "an armed society is a politr society". BUT, the lack of competence often demonstrated on the range or in classes DOES concern me. Many states (including my own) currently require NO test but a written one! I don't have a thorough solution, but this isn't as it should be.

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"Potius sero quam nunquam."
 
Many people believe "A well regulated Militia...." addresses training.
Here in NV, there is a 10 hour "book" course required before qualifying. They must have taken it, since they were on the range, they just apparently paid no attention whatsoever.
 
Try to get a suburban grade school to ALLOW you to teach gun SAFETY. Pre-marital sex, and safe needle usage, SURE! GUNS??? NO WAY DUDE!
Many school districts have refused Eddie Eagle type instructon, even by volunteers. They should be held negligent if one of their students is found responsible for an unintentional gun death or accident. Just my $.02 :)
 
Without a doubt, there are too many people who want the permit without really understanding the responsibilities that go with it. The consequences of poor gun handling are more severe than with most other weapons. If it is important enough for a person to want to carry - it is important enough for them to at least pass a rudimentary requirement of skill.
 
Back in the days before we had state CCW, individual counties could issue permits and made their own rules. I was lucky enough to live in one of the permit counties. One of the requirements was annual qualification on the Sheriff's dept range using the standard police qualification course. Two things to bear in mind. One, this was the Sheriff's Dept. range run by their shooting instructors. Two, the group of shooters was mixed with those doing annual re-qualification and those trying to qualify for the first time in order to get their permit. Minimum score was 70, anything less meant no permit.
I told you all that so you could understand the story I'm about to tell.
One year when I went to re-qualify, There was a small black woman in her fifties two lanes over from me. I noticed her right off because her Glock 9mm looked awful big in the hands of such a small woman. After firing at the five yard line, I was comparing my target to the other shooters when I realized this little woman was in trouble. I thought no way is she gonna qualify. At the seven and fifteen yard lines, I began to feel sorry for her because she was trying very hard. But then, when we went to the twenty five yard line one of the instructors walked up to her and asked "Is there something wrong with your pistol?" She said she didn't think so. The instructor told her to let him see it a minute. About that time the "Fire" command was given and the instructor fired this ladies last ten rounds into her target. He then handed the gun back to her and said "My mistake, its fine." Her score was 72 and she got her permit.
Was this the right thing to do? You decide for yourself. Me, I just smiled.
 
At the range that I use, there was a CCW qualification taking place. I had to wait
for them to finish before I could use the range.

Despite the fact that there were several range officers present, I still saw alot of scary gun handling.

There was one woman who was reholstering her S&W 3913 9mm without decocking it first. She'd draw the gun in double action mode, fire the requested number of shots, and plunk it back into the holster with the hammer COCKED@?@! I alerted one of the range officers and had him address the situation. After he wandered off to help someone else, despite what he told her and showed her she would still plunk it back into the holster with the hammer cocked. *sigh*

There was one 22yr old "rambo type know it all" there that was shooting a Colt Defender .45. He was constantly getting smoke stack style jams. I witnessed him doing the Chuck Taylor method of wiping the hand across the top of the slide to clear the jam.
Well...a little bit later, after firing a few rounds, I saw him get another smoke stack. Except this time when he wiped his hand across the top of the slide, he managed to get the end of his left thumb caught in the ejection port!@#* He was screaming bloody murder and everyone thought he accidentally shot himself. Ouch! A case of M1 thumb with a Colt Defender! Can you believe that?

[This message has been edited by dvc (edited February 08, 2000).]
 
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