Putting my guns on brother's and dad's permits, good idea?

E

Erikbal

New member
Alright guys here's the deal. I am currently living at my parent's house with my brother as well. My dad and brother just got their permits this week. The only guns in the house are my 2. One of my brother's friends is a Sheriff's deputy, and he suggested having my guns put on their permits as well, in case anything were to ever happen and they had to use one of them. It would help to legally cover their asses basically. Has anyone else done this?
I think it's a good idea from a legal point of view, and totally understand. Yet at the same time it feels kind of weird to me to have the guns I bought on their permits. I'm sure I'll end up doing it, just wanted to hear opinions. We live in NY state by the way. Thanks
 
Very few states (so far as I know) require listing specific firearms on your license/permit. New York is one of the few (maybe the only) with this requirement.

IMHO this is a question that can be answered adequately only by an attorney licensed and practicing in New York state. As I understand it, if one doesn't have a NY state license one cannot even handle a firearm in NY state. On the other hand, if you have a carry permit you are allowed to carry those handguns listed on your permit.

Somewhere in between lies the person who has a permit, but doesn't own a gun and has no guns listed on his/her permit. If having a permit entitles your father and brother to pick up and shoot firearms, but they don't plan to carry your firearms, I don't see (as a non-lawyer who doesn't live in New York) anything to be gained by listing your guns on their permits.

From your perspective, I think you need to ask if there are ANY potential liabilities for you that could arise from having your guns listed on someone else's permit. Once they are listed, your father or brother could carry one of your guns. Does that in any way make you secondarily liable for their use (or abuse) of the firearms if something should happen?

I don't have an answer to that, but I think you need to objectively evaluate what's to be gained from doing this against what increased liability exposure it might produce for you. Remember ... YOU have nothing to gain from this, so you need to be assured that being a "good guy" can't turn around and bite you in the posterior.
 
I live near Rochester. My wife and I have all our pistols on both permits. There are several good reasons to do this. For other members benefit, it is illegal in NY State to even handle a pistol that isn't listed on your permit, except at a gun range.

1) Yes, if they need to use them for protection
2) If something happens to you that invalidates your possession of them, because otherwise the police will confiscate them. This includes death.
3) The most likely scenario is you and one or both of the others riding in a car with your gun(s). In a car, everyone is considered to be in possession of any gun. If you stop for a bathroom break and a policeman sees the guns somehow, they are instant felons.

So reason 2 is definitely a benefit to you. 3 is a benefit if you don't want them in jail. 1 is if you want them alive. While I never heard of someone suing the owner and not the possessor, people sue for lots of reasons. If they aren't on their permits and they use them, you are definitely liable if someone gets hurt with them.

I'm not sure what the procedure is in your county, but is likely to be as easy as all of you going to your county clerk to have it done. In my county it costs $3 to do it (not per gun).
 
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GJSchulze said:
While I never heard of someone suing the owner and not the possessor, people sue for lots of reasons. If they aren't on their permits and they use them, you are definitely liable if someone gets hurt with them.
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Now that's an interesting wrinkle. Being a non-lawyer and a non-New Yorker, I was thinking the exact opposite might be true -- that the owner might make himself more susceptible to lawsuit by allowing other people to put his guns on their permits. However, I suppose (in a twisted, distorted, nanny-state way) what you wrote makes sense. I suppose the thinking (in NY, anyway) would be that you, as the owner, are responsible for your property, so if someone who doesn't have your gun listed on their permit gets hold of it and does "A BAD THING," it's all your fault for not having made it impossible for that person to have had access to your firearm.

You'll have to excuse me -- my head hurts from even thinking about this perspective, and I need to find some Excedrin.
 
Absolutely register the handguns on their permits as well. Registration on a permit in NY is not so much ownership as permission to possess the handgun. If the handguns are not on their permits, NYS law prohibits them from possessing (read, "touching them at all") without you present.
 
I agree with the above posters, having handled the NY process too. Having them register your pistols really just protects all three of you in the event that they have to use them. It should also protect you in general since you are required to keep your pistols out of others' possession at all times, unless the pistols are also registered to them.

As an example, I cannot leave my pistol at my parents' house if I am away (being in the military) unless my mother and father both have a permit and the pistol is also registered to both of them or unless the pistol is locked up in a safe they cannot access. So registering to your father and brother will help with that complication too.
 
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I am from New York state too. I agree with the other comments, all handguns should be on all permits in the house. My wife is in the process(a long one by the way) of getting her NY pistol permit. When she gets it I will have my handguns listed on her permit.
 
For other members benefit, it is illegal in NY State to even handle a pistol that isn't listed on your permit, except at a gun range.[/I This being the case you couldn't handle a firearm at a gun shop.

This is about the silliest thing I've heard all week.

They couldn't even enforce such a law.
 
This being the case you couldn't handle a firearm at a gun shop
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Good question. I should be able to find out about this by Wednesday, at the latest. The penal code states all the things that are illegal with firearms and other weapons. Then, after that, there is a section that details all the exemptions to illegal possession like having a permit, being a dealer, and many more. It says that it is legal for a dealer to have firearms, so that is most likely the loophole that lets people handle them. Perhaps merely handling them is not possession. It's not like the laws are easy to understand.
 
This being the case you couldn't handle a firearm at a gun shop
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If you hold a NYS Pistol License, you can handle any handgun not registered on your permit as long as a person to whom the gun is registered is present. Therefore, you can handle a handgun at a gun shop, as long as you're a license holder.

For other members benefit, it is illegal in NY State to even handle a pistol that isn't listed on your permit, except at a gun range.
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There is no exception for being at a gun range. You are only allowed to use your friend's handgun at the range if he's present and you are licensed.

This is about the silliest thing I've heard all week.
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People who live in America are so cute when they hear about our stupid NY laws.
 
While I never heard of someone suing the owner and not the possessor
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It is the norm for motor vehicles involved in an accident in Ohio for driver and owner to be sued if not the same. I know of several lawsuits involving real property where the owner was named along with the lessee irrespective of how the property was insured. I think the owner will almsot certainly be named on any suit unless there is obviously no money to be had, and no attorney is going to assume that.

I'll admit not knowing of any instances with firearms, but it happens for everything else as far as I know.
 
Thanks everyone, you have brought up some very good points. They both just got their permits at the same time, so when we get a chance we'll take the half hour ride to the county sheriff's office and have it done. Then once they purchase their own handguns, I will have those put on MY permit as well. I have to remind myself that this doesn't give them free reign to use and take my guns whenever they please. It's just to cover our hides in case something were to happen. Thanks again, I love this forum!
 
Putting my guns on brother's and dad's permits, good idea?
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I'm torn. If one loves their state then perhaps they should stay with the hopes of affecting outcome such that stupid gun laws get overturned. On the other hand, I can't help but wonder if the really bad idea is to stay in a state that has permits that include gun information.
 
Its a good idea. Everyone in the household who can legally do so should get their permit, and ALL handguns should be listed on ALL the permits.

Back in the late 1960s, my parents were in four car collision. They survived (although a couple people did not). It was after that that we realized that if something had happened to Dad, all his pistols would have to be turned in. He owned 6 handguns, which was more than anyone else we knew in our town (the next highest number was 2).

At that time, if we turned them in to the State police, they would be held a certain amount of time (90 days, IIRC) and then, destroyed. If we turned them in to the local Sherriff, and applied for a permit, they would be held until the permit was approved (or denied).

At that time each gun was listed on the permit by maker, caliber, barrel length, and serial number. Mom applied, and get her permit. Both my brother and I applied (and got) our permits when we turned 18. (at that time, the age of the permit holder was at the issuing judge's discretion, as was everything else about the permit) Also, at that time, permits were good for life, unless revoked. And not valid at all in NYC. And there was no concealed permit. Your pistol permit was required for ownership, and valid for open carry (other than in NYC) only.

Are the permits today still the unlaminated paper they were then?

I went into the Army in 1975, and left New York state. After my service, I wound up living on the other side of the country, in a place with a much friendlier attitude towards handgun owners.

In 2000, New York contacted me, and since I was "no longer a NYS resident", the informed me my permit was no longer valid. And, they wanted it back! They wanted me to send them the little paper card with my picture & thumbprint on it. The one they issued me back in 1975! AND, they wanted me to tell them what happened to the handguns that were listed on it!

(the guns on my NY permit were my Dad's (and Mom's). I owned no handguns of my own at the time I got the permit)

Needless to say, they did not receive what they considered a satisfactory response....

in 2003, my Dad passed away (Mom had gone earlier), and I returned to NYS to help my brother deal with things. Some of Dads guns were going home with me (rifles), but the handguns we had to have shipped, FFL dealer to dealer. We (my brother, since he had the permit) had to drive 80 miles to find a dealer to ship them. (When I lived there, I could ride my bicycle to 4 different shops within 20 miles...)

As to everyone who comments about "silly laws" and "you should move", the laws under which we grow up and seldom silly, we are taught to think of them as what is right, and proper. After all, its the law! it isn't until you live somewhere else, with different laws that you really get to understand the difference. I was happy, and even proud to comply with the NY law when I lived there. It wasn't until I lived elsewhere that I realized just how complex, costly, and onerous NY law really was. And I think its worse today.

If your family, social, and economic situation allows, move. If it doesn't, obey the law and do what you can to get it changed (*and good luck with that*). New York State is a great place, but it is, and has been badly run for generations. And by badly, I mean with respect to gun rights. (its badly run a lot of other ways too, but this isn't the place for that discussion).

Seriously, get everyone who can in the household a permit, and get all the gun on all of them. Its basic CYA for you, and everyone else. And remember, any crime (including traffic violations) could result in loss of the permit. That too is at the whim of a judge.
 
I was also suggested to do this when I was still in NY but as a safeguard against the state confiscating the weapons in the event of your death of your permit being revoked etc which has supposedly happened before (I dont have trouble believing it just haven't ever looked for a documented case of it)
 
Yeah the permits today are still a green piece of paper with your picture on them and the pistols TYPED on the back by model, caliber, serial number. Pretty old school if you ask me.

Oh and I don't plan on staying in NY forever, I really don't like this state at all anymore.
 
In regards to legal protection should an unpermited person need to use the gun for self defense, such things are generally considered an affirmative defense (I don't know if that legal term exactly applies but the principle does, at least to an extent), in that the fact of doing something illegal (using the gun that isn't on your permit) is overridden by the fact that doing so was imminently necessary for the preservation of life. Just like shooting your attacker is actually illegal except for the specific circumstance that allows for use of deadly force, the same concept applies to illegally using a firearm. If the shooting is ruled as self-defense, it'd be hard to imagine that they'd charge the shooter for illegally using the gun.


In regards to listing the firearms on someone else's permit, listing them does not imply or give ownership. It is a possession permit. The person who bought them owns them.
 
permits today are still a green piece of paper
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There are some exceptions. Livingston County uses a plastic card. I have no idea how they list your guns. Separate piece of paper with typed info? Anyone know? Monroe County has the machine to do the plastic card, but the clerk told me their software isn't compatible?! Stupid government. I don't like the green paper, but it is a lot thinner in my wallet than my Utah, Florida, and Arizona permits are and they're all plastic.

should an unpermited person need to use the gun for self defense, such things are generally considered an affirmative defense
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While I wouldn't hesitate to use a gun not on my permit for self defense, I'm not so sure the same applies to someone without a permit. I'm guessing it depends on case law, the judge, the DA, and how far you are away from NYC, since I don't think that is in the penal code. I'd expect that someone saving a busload of children in NYC using an illegal gun would end up in trouble if Bloomie had his way.
 
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