Purchasing Firearms; Are we asking to be Registered?

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Paul Revere

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Ponder this...

Most of us by now realize that buying a firearm through a FFL dealer insures that that firearm gets registered. Fill out the 4473, submit to the NICS, boom....paper trail equals registration. Is it possible that some of us are even proud to participate in this registration scheme? Or is it just out of necessity? Do we just sit back then and hold our breath and hope we never get that dreaded knock on our door? Knowing all the while that your private property (firearms) records are open for federal inspections?

This is not a topic about avoidance of information on one's background, nor is it a means in which we purposefully thwart the illegal "registration" process of 4473/NICS (hint hint).

It wasn't until I sat on the seller's side of the table at a gun show did I realize that many would-be gunowners have to purchase their firearms from established FFL dealers, because those dealers accept CREDIT CARDS! It became clearly obvious after a few hours of talking guns with several show patrons, that people just aren't prepared to pay CASH when they seek out a new/used/or first firearm at gun shows. Probably less than 1% of those patrons carry enough cash when they walk through those doors, to buy what they set out to find.

Now this may already be obvious to most of you, but doesn't the inability to pay cash for a firearm FORCE us to register them by having to purchase them through an established FFL? Everyone knows (or should know) that the records of any FFL are open to the inspection of the BATF anytime they want. Many of us deduct by reasoning and "logic" that the feds couldn't possibly have our purchases "registered" because the NICS check only tells what type of firearm it is (long gun or hand gun, etc.)...wrong!

Imagine now that you seek to buy a hunting knife. And buying one from a dealer requires you to fill out a federal form and submit to a federal background check. Would you still buy your hunting knives at "authorized knife dealers"? Or would you seek out someone who sells those knives without the invasion of your privacy? Forget about whether you have anything to hide or not, that isn't the point here.

Realistically, our "arms" (guns and knives) are protected by the 2nd Amendment of our Bill of Rights. So why are we allowing ourselves to submit to this tyranny? Because we can't afford to pay CASH???

How much is freedom worth?
 
If the current law requiring a 4473 be kept on file by the selling FFL is not repealed, how are we going to obtain new arms without entering inventory into our bound book and filling out the 4473? The NICS does not receive the serial number on a purchase and unless the flanking tactic is to drive all FFLs out of business, the 4473 stays in the possession of the FFL. Woodman
 
Woodman:

You wrote:

If the current law requiring a 4473 be kept on file by the selling FFL is not repealed, how are we going to obtain new arms without entering inventory into our bound book and filling out the 4473? The NICS does not receive the serial number on a purchase and unless the flanking tactic is to drive all FFLs out of business, the 4473 stays in the possession of the FFL. Woodman

The 4473's "stay in the possession of the FFL" only so long as he/she remains in business. Aside from this, they are "subject to inspection", dealer records that is, and the 4473's are part of "dealer records".
 
Correct me if I'm wrong, but an "instant check" IS immediate registration. OOOppps! I just remembered. According to an organizational agreement, we are assured that those records are not seen by gvt agencies, and that they are destroyed by ???? so many days. I guess its a good thing that I can trust all parties involved on that one.
When I went to make a purchase a while back, the dealer even required that I give him my social security number....not that I'll ever see any of the money that they took for SS, but it sure makes a great ID # for registration and eventual confiscation.

Those 4473s are also lists for possible citizen disarmament. Of course it isn't as conveniently accessed as the NIC, or my state's CC permission slip database, but it'll do when the dealer retires or is required to turn in that bound book for seizure. I don't know what dealers that I could trust to not put the info accessed through credit card purchases of used guns into that little hit list they call the bound book.

Friends, I don't know of any way to get around the purchase of a new grip frame or gun w/out giving the info to the leaders who enforce the 1968 Nazi laws. Wish that I did... equalizerplus@netscape.net

robert

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"But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip; and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." -Jesus Christ (Luke 22:36, see John 3:15-18)
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"Reasonable gun law?............There's No such critter!" --EQ
 
in Maryland it is a felony to buy a handgun and not go though an FFL. No private sales.


dZ
 
dZ,

Are you talking about new or used? I think that's the case for new guns everywhere because its a fed law. As for a flea market or personal private sale, that's not the case YET here. Is the Md law state private sales of used weapons?

robert

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"But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip; and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." -Jesus Christ (Luke 22:36, see John 3:15-18)
---------------------------
"Reasonable gun law?............There's No such critter!" --EQ
 
I don't know about Maryland but I know that California wants its subjects to go through a FFL holder to even transfer firearms within a family, as from father to son.

These are laws that are essentially unenforceable but they probably can come back, in rare cases, to bite the ignorant.
 
In Illinois you can buy from a private citizen, but he has to keep records of the sale (to be legal.) I think they still require the seller to keep the records 10 years. I think you also have to use an FFL to do the actual transfer at gunshows but I wouldn't swear to it, to allow the background check and waiting period to be done.
 
The last gun show I went to...was ALL dealers.....save for three guys who were selling bolt action long guns.
 
If you want to avoid the paper trail (and YES you are instantly registered when you do a NICS), you just have to be a bit more creative. It doesn't matter whether you're looking for a new gun or used one, if you devote a little time to your search, you WILL find what you're looking for from another private individual. But you have to carry enough CASH in your pocket to make a deal happen. Many times, more expensive items can be purchased at huge discounts to the prevailing market prices, because you'll be one of the very few people carrying enough CASH to make that sale happen. Normally, you won't even have anyone else competing against that item, but you have to keep your eyes peeled and be aggressive when you see something you want. Also, it is absolutely imparative that you know the current market values of items you're interested in (a Blue Book is great for most things, a current Gun List, or even a review of www.gunsamerica.com will help tremendously).

Gwinn:

Private table holders at Illinois gun shows are required to follow Illinois state laws when selling a firearm. That means some type of receipt with the make/caliber/serial number, the buyer's/seller's name/FOID#, and the waiting period (72hrs for handguns & 24hrs for long guns). This record is to be kept by the seller for ten (10) years. But NO 4473/NICS applies to these sales whatsoever. Hence no paper trail equals no registration.

Some show patrons avoid the waiting period business altogether when they purchase from other patrons. Common sense should prevail in such transactions however. It's good to get/give a receipt with the aforementioned information for one's personal records.

Many (most) other states don't require any of these silly unconstitutional requirements of private individual sales at gun shows or from your home. Those states provide the most freedom from the dreaded paper trail. Again, its all about how much you want to remain free, and outside the "system".

Additionally, once you've gotten this concept down, it's probably a good idea to get rid of those FFL purchased items immediately, but keep a record of whom you sold them to. If you purchased those items from an FFL more than ten years ago, you may not have to be as concerned, as those you bought recently.

To the lurkers and feds reading this...

THIS is the reason the government wants ALL (private) sales at gun shows run through their registration scheme known as 4473/NICS. It drives them crazy knowing how successful their illegal registration scheme is going with the manipulated and intimidated FFLs, but those pesky private sales keep avoiding their yokes of enslavement.

Guns should be no different than knives, or hammers, or socket wrenches, or books, or antiques. Those of us who are paying attention to your infringements are not going to play by "your" rules. For information on OUR rules, pick up a copy of the United States Constitution and refresh yourself. It still applies today, irregardless of your silly utopian agenda!
 
Better check again, isn't no protection there.

The government at this very time is trying to collect ALL information for the last 3 years for a "data base", however that DB won't be used in violation of the congressional passed law...

Like DUHH, why would you make a data base you can't (or won't) use??
 
Paul:

I absolutely agree, there is no need to leave a trail that could come back to haunt you later.

On a side note I checked out the New American site, it's pretty good. Thanks for the link. I saw this one the other day - it is a very good site dealing with the NWO ect. I think you'll like it - http://www.kenraggio.com
 
I have wondered.... When the ATF checks a FFLs records couldn't they have a scanner in their case and copy all the forms onto computer right there???
I remember the movie Red Dawn. The Russians "was a few yrs back" went to gun dealers and got the 4473s to round up all the guns.
Had a local dealer promice he would burn them before he gave them up. He quit when the ATF raised the heat and guess what??? He sent them all in. I don't really care but he should have kept his mouth shut.
 
PR: Good topic and some good points.

I am a young man and I remember, years ago, folks saying, "When they start registering guns, that's where I'll draw the line and start fighting (Revolution)."
More recently, "When private sales are banned, that's where I'll draw the line and start fighting."
Well, here we are.
And since fighting means we might miss the ball game this weekend we BACKPEDDLE and say "it's not *really* registration.. besides how 'bout if we just VOTE instead... that seems to be working out pretty well, eh?"
I'm ashamed to be associated with this 80mil strong fraternity who parrot such lines as "..the teeth of the Constitution." Teeth of my @$$!

Good point on the credit card thing... no real mystery though. The type of person who buries their head concerning 4473/NICS infringement is probably the type of person who is a slave to credit. OTOH, the type consciencious enough to care is the type to see the value of paying in cash/check/money order.

[This message has been edited by Jordan (edited April 13, 2000).]
 
Gun owners and self-proclaimed Constitutional supporters have no legitimate complaints. All of the infringements we complain about were implemented by the two major parties we've voted for and continue to vote for.

We vote Republican to avoid the tyranny of the Democrats. Result? We get the slow tyranny of the Republicans. The end result will be the same - private ownership of firearms will become so difficult and expensive that most of us will turn them in - regardless of our loud-mouthed promises to the contrary. When the Jack-Booted Thugs appear at your home, you will be docile or dead.

Gun owners talk big but if and when we vote, we vote like cowards.

By giving the Republicans our continuing support, we support the lesser of two gun control agendas. Like it or not, it IS that simple.

You don't bring about change by perpetuating the status quo.

I wish I had the money to back the following bet:

Regardless of who becomes President, I'll give you fifty bucks for every gun control law which is repealed. You give me TEN bucks for every additional gun control infringement (law, directive, or policy) which is implemented or strengthened.

I soon could retire.

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Either you believe in the Second Amendment or you don't.
Stick it to 'em! RKBA!



[This message has been edited by Dennis (edited April 13, 2000).]
 
Dennis, I would like to get in on your bet. You are on target. If we think we are going to repeal the 4473 requirements, or any of the other freedom restricting laws on the books, we have got to get actively involved in the local political process NOW. Policy filters up from the local level; although very slowly. One of Klinton's favorite lines of late is "Don't let perfection become the enemy of good". Don't let the weasels in your local party unit keep you from working your way into it. Big problem with this is that it takes committment. You will have to spend a couple of hours a month and put up with a bunch of grief from the local politicos that do not want you in their club. It is not a quick fix, but we have a better chance to win this way than by complaining among ourselves or fantasizing about "drawing a line in the sand". Woodman
 
If you do any amount of studying about where the Globalist bankers are taking us, you'll already know what danger we're in as gunowners. We can see it on the horizon now, and it's simply just a matter of time before it's fully implemented. I'm talking about a "cash-less" economy. I'm talking about ALL transactions being done through electronic means. This is ultimately assumed to be done with some type of implanted chip which is read by scanning devices. Yes, a chip implanted under your skin! Intel was "given" something like $500Mil in 1995 to begin research and development on such a chip. Now, other companies are on the bandwagon including Advanced Digital Systems, Inc. (ADSX for you investors) for one.

This electronic economy will make cash not only obsolete, but ILLEGAL to use. One of the purposes of a cashless economy is to centralize the profitability of the Global monopoly...to eliminate competition, and eliminate "black markets". So how does that affect gunowners? Tell me you haven't already guessed it? Exactly, no more private sales of firearms! This could possibly be the thing that eliminates the ability to purchase firearms, ammunition, and firearm related goods/services altogether. Once cash is made obsolete and illegal, how else will you be able to buy more firearms/ammunition? The bankers will control EVERYTHING, including the decisions of what you can and cannot buy. Think it sounds crazy? It's already in process, just look around you.

The Treasury has already figured out how to locate all the currency in circulation by issuing the new bills with a magnetic strip device pressed between the paper layers (hold it up to the light...see the strip?). And remember, the Federal Reserve Notes are worthless pieces of paper, only symbolizing "money" because the government says we have to treat it like money. If cash becomes obsolete, what could hoards of cash buy anyway? Exactly! Nothing!

Now, how about creating alot of work for the feds when and if they ever have enough balls to come door to door. Sell your FFL purchased firearms immediately to another private individual using the government's phoney money. You may want to keep a note of whom you sold the pieces to. Chances are, by the time those balls get big enough to do a door to door, those pieces will have been sold again, maybe 2 or 3 more times. Now what? Well, you already guessed that. You're going to be replacing all of your sold FFL registered pieces with pieces you've bought from other individuals. Pieces which DO NOT have a paper trail, at least in terms of a federally controlled paper trail. Get the picture? Private sales of firearms in the future will be made by "trading" between individuals...trading un-traceable pieces of nothingness.

The more control we give our government, the more freedom they take from us. Interesting how that all works, isn't it? If you are saying this can't all happen in America, you'll need to dig your head out of the sand. How soon is all this going to happen? Does that really matter? What about your children's world? Where will freedom be for them? What are you waiting for...get moving!
 
http://www.inform.umd.edu/UMS+State/MD_Resources/MDSP/regulate.txt

Sub-Section 443A. Gun Shows - Sale, Trade, or Transfer of
Regulated Firearms

(A) Definitions - (1) In this section the following words
have the meanings indicated.

(2) "Gun Show" means an organized gathering open to the
public at which any firearm is displayed.

(3) "Regulated Firearm" means any firearm whose sale or
transfer is subject to the provisions of section 442 of this
article.

(4) "Superintendent" means the Superintendent of the
Maryland State Police or the Superintendent's designee.

(j) Notification of completed transaction; permanent record
of sales and transfers. -Any dealer who sells or transfers a
pistol or revolver in compliance with this subtitle shall forward
a copy of the written notification of such completed transaction,
within seven days from the date of delivery of the said pistol or
revolver, to the Superintendent of the Maryland State Police, whose
duty it shall be to maintain a permanent record of all such
completed sales and transfers of pistols and revolvers in the
State. The notifications shall contain an identifying description
of the pistol or revolver sold or transferred including its
caliber, make, model, manufacturer's serial number, if any, and any
other special or peculiar characteristics or marking by which the
said pistol or revolver may be identified.

(B) Temporary transfer permit - (1) (i) A person who
displays a regulated firearm for sale or transfer from a table or
fixed display at a gun show shall first obtain a temporary transfer
permit from the Superintendent.
(ii) The cost of an initial temporary transfer
permit each calendar year is $10.
(iii) An additional temporary transfer permit during
the same calendar year shall be issued without charge.
(iv) A person may not receive more than five
temporary transfer permits during a single calendar year.
(v) A temporary transfer permit shall be clearly
labeled "temporary" and shall include the statement "this is not a
license to engage in the business of selling firearms."
(vi) The application for a temporary transfer permit
shall contain that information necessary for the Superintendent to
conduct a computer background investigation.
(vii) Every application for a temporary transfer
permit shall bear the following statement: "Any false information
supplied or statement made in this application is a crime which may
be punished by imprisonment for a period of not more than 3 years
or a fine of not more than $5,000 or both."

(2) (i) The Superintendent shall conduct an
investigation to determine the truth or falsity of the information
supplied, and the statements made in the application for a
temporary transfer permit.
(ii) If there is no reason to disapprove the
application for a temporary transfer permit, the Superintendent
shall issue the permit within 7 days of the date of application.

(3) The Superintendent shall forward written
notification of the disapproval to the applicant, if it is
determined that:
(i) The application is improperly completed;
(ii) Any false information has been supplied; or
(iii) A false statement has been made.

(4) The temporary transfer permit shall be placed in
public view as part of any display.

(5) Any person who holds a valid pistol and revolver
dealer's license issued under section 443 of this article is exempt
from the requirements of this subsection.

(C) Any sale or transfer of a regulated firearm from a table
or a fixed display at a gun show shall be governed by the
provisions of section 442 of this article.

(D) Any person who, in any calendar year, displays a
regulated firearm for sale, trade, or transfer at more than five
gun shows shall comply with section 443 of this article.

Sub-Section 443 Pistol and Revolver Dealer's License

(a) Required. -No person shall engage in the business of
selling pistols or revolvers unless he lawfully possesses and
conspicuously displays at his place of business, in addition to any
other license required by law, a pistol and revolver dealer's
license issued by the Superintendent of the Maryland State Police
or his duly authorized agent or agents. Such license shall
identify the licensee and the location of his place of business.
One such license shall be required for each place of business where
pistols or revolvers are sold.
 
dz...

Geez man, sorry such a state exists. Irregardless, may I remind you and all in the Maryland legislature that all of your laws violate the Rule of Law and the United States Constitution. Even case law which is supported by an un-Constitutional law as its basis has no legal foundation.

No State can (legally) enact a law that violates an American citizen's unalienable Right. Of which the 2nd Amendment is a part thereof.

What does it mean to obey a law that has no legal basis or Constitutionality? If your means to purchase/posess/transfer an arm protected by the 2nd is "infringed", such an infringement authorizes you to... THINK FOR YOURSELF!!!!!!!!

Throw off the yokes of your enslavement and be a free man. It feels really, really good.
 
there is also this little diddy:
(a) Right to regulate transfer and possession of pistols and
revolvers preempted by State. -All restrictions imposed by the
laws, ordinances or regulations of all subordinate jurisdictions
within the State of Maryland on possession or transfers by private
parties of pistols and revolvers are superseded by this section and
the State of Maryland hereby preempts the right of such
jurisdictions to regulate the possession and transfer of pistols
and revolvers.

& of course MD has the HAndgun review board that must evaluate any pistol before it can be sold in MD: http://www.inform.umd.edu/UMS+State/MD_Resources/MDSP/gunrostr.html

This is kinda interesting too: http://www.mcdl.org/stats.htm
Only in Maryland are you NOT DISAPPROVED ! -- whenever a law-abiding citizen buys a Maryland Regulated firearm, a Form 77R is sent to
the Maryland State Police (MSP) for a background check by your licensed gun dealer. When returned from the MSP, if your law-abiding, not
under-age, or of mental infirmity, your Form 77R will be stamped NOT DISAPPROVED. You sign it and return it to the MSP. Your pink copy
does not have that stamp. Thats why MCDL is publishing it on the web. MCDL thinks it is stamped this way, because the state government
has no authority under the Constitution of the United States to give such approval.
 
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