Pulling the trigger straight back . . .

Thanks and . . .

Thanks. This is what is great about this forum. You get lots of info from experience people who know what they are doing (usually)! It's a rainy day here so will take some time and digest all this good info.

Live well, be safe
Prof Young
 
I thought I was a pretty good handgun shot, then this year I tried NRA Bullseye Pistol. It turned out, I was not that good. I have no idea how many times I completely missed the 50 yard target, not just the bull, the whole darn thing. Also missed the 25 yard rapid fire targets. The whole experience was humbling, but fun. Because I improved. Got my sharpshooter card this year. I am no longer the worst of the worst, just, second to the worst. Yippie!

Until you shoot a precision game, like Bullseye, you have no idea just how bad you are in sight alignment, trigger pull, pistol hold, and follow through. There are so many little twitches and pulls that will throw a shot off. Good Bullseye shooters have perfect trigger pulls, each shot. They are very consistent in everything.

When I grow up, I want to be a good pistol shooter. But it is going to take a lot of practice to get there.
 
^^^^

It is humbling to shoot the formal target game. The range is measured and known, the shots are recorded and scored, the numbers are plain and directly comparable from one shooter to another. Some folks say something like "I am a good shot; I can hit a can almost every time on my back yard range."

No indication of whether the target is a beer can or a garbage can, or the distance involved, or what "almost" means.

Jim
 
I run my Glocks the same way as Leatham and they are nowhere near a 3 lb trigger nor as short. Also my Kahr CW9 and my Shield, it's not Bullseye......
Interesting. For context:

What sort of accuracy are you achieving at 10 yards slapping the trigger on a typical DAO pistol?
What modifications, if any, have been done to the triggers?
What's your shooting experience level?
How many rounds do you fire a year?
 
It is humbling to shoot the formal target game.

It is also a huge jump in difficulty from just hitting the berm. The ten ring at 50 yards is 3.36 inches in diameter. http://compete.nra.org/documents/pdf/compete/rulebooks/pistol/pistol-book.pdf That is small. The Les Baer Wadcutter promises: It’s designed for wadcutter loads only and it’s guaranteed to shoot 2 1/2” groups at 50 yards. https://www.lesbaer.com/Bullseye.html
bullseye-wadcutter-w-mount.jpg


While there is a 1.5" guarantee for even more money, I challenge anyone with a super accurate M1911 to keep ten shots in a 3.36 diameter circle, at 50 yards, shooting unsupported with one hand. It is not easy. I have seen others shoot 97's at that distance, but I have not seen a 100 yet. I think I shot a 90 with my S&W M41. Might have been a high 80's. Sure as heck did not shoot a 190 or 195 (20 shots for the stage) at 50 yards. I would be happy to shoot in the 170's. Bullseye Pistol is incredibly difficult and demanding.
 
JohnKSa said:
Interesting. For context:

What sort of accuracy are you achieving at 10 yards slapping the trigger on a typical DAO pistol?
What modifications, if any, have been done to the triggers?
What's your shooting experience level?
How many rounds do you fire a year?

Doubles at every match, 12 yards and out, while moving.
My Glocks are stock.
Shoot a USPSA match at least 4 times a month.
About 15,000 to 18,000 rounds a year.

How about you? G31 running full house 125 grain going about 1,420 fps

Like this

image37179.jpg
 
That's very impressive shooting. Even at the experience level you have and with the amount of shooting you're doing, there aren't many people who can shoot that well on the move, let alone with an unmodified DAO pistol, full power loads and using a trigger "slapping" technique.
How about you?
I'm not that good by a long shot. In fact, I'm not sure that I've ever seen anyone who is that good. You should definitely look into getting a company sponsor.
 
John, thank you, but honestly there are thousands and thousands of USPSA competitors who are far better. To get big sponsors you have to travel to several Level II matches and Nationals every year, and practice at least 2,000 rounds a month (just drills). I only shoot to stay proficient for CCW and to lower my blood pressure.

Here is what we do every weekend, not including Steel Challenge, 3 gun and rifle matches.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJKKt_1T_oI
 
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JohnKSa said:
That's very impressive shooting.

Indeed. Well done.

JohnKSa said:
there aren't many people who can shoot that well...using a trigger "slapping" technique.

Seems a clarification is needed here: The term "slapping" has never implied poor trigger control. It simply means the shooter get their finger off the trigger on it's return, allowing it to fully reset, rather than riding the trigger forward just enough to allow the sear to reengage. The former's been shown to be faster, which is why the big dogs in speed games like USPSA and Steel Challenge are "trigger slappers".
 
The term "slapping" has never implied poor trigger control. It simply means the shooter get their finger off the trigger on it's return, allowing it to fully reset, rather than riding the trigger forward just enough to allow the sear to reengage. The former's been shown to be faster, which is why the big dogs in speed games like USPSA and Steel Challenge are "trigger slappers".
I'm familiar with the term and the technique. It's certainly true that at the higher levels, particularly shooters (the "big dogs" as you say) using light SA triggers, it's not uncommon to see the technique used to good effect. It's also true that once you get out of that rarified atmosphere of the top levels of competition and start looking at people who shoot unmodified DAO triggers it's much less common and generally used with much less impressive results.
...there are thousands and thousands of USPSA competitors who are far better...
I think you're underestimating your stated abilities.

Do you really believe that there are "thousands and thousands" of shooters who can frequently shoot touching doubles, while on the move, at ranges past 10 yards, shooting full-power .357SIG ammo, and with a stock DAO pistol?
 
Again John, thank you, but age and mileage have taken a toll on me. Psoriatic and Osteosis arthritis, 40% loss of color vision, can't see holes beyond 7 yards, too many motorcycle crashes, it all adds up against 20-40 year old Grand Masters. Ok, so maybe for Limited Major 9, a few hundred, but only because it really hasn’t caught on yet against 40S&W major with the same magazine capacity. A 200 grain 40 going 825fps is much more manageable than a 125 grain going 1,400fps. And because the way USPSA scoring works, ie, hit factor (HF) = points earned divided by time. So for example, a 10 target stage, worth 100 points, say from a static box, hoser stage, no movement, no reloads, I run 10 seconds and score 100 points, therefore a HF of 10. But the GM runs 5 seconds with 4 mikes and only earns 60 points (10 points down for each miss). However his fit factor is 60/5 = 12. So even though he has misses, he gets the highest HF, and he takes 100% of the stage points but I only earn 10/12’s of that, or 83 points, instead of the 100 I scored. Division stage winner takes all in USPSA. Now throw in a long field course, worth 160 points, with lots of movement and difficult shooting positions, the separation becomes even larger. Speed is rewarded.
 
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JohnKSa said:
I'm familiar with the term and the technique.

My clarification was mainly directed generally.

It seems a popular misconception that, to go fast, one just wails on the trigger, control be damned. The term "slapping" can easily be misconstrued by some to support that idea.
 
I'm more consistent when I put 2 fingers on the trigger.
My left trigger finger is actually on the trigger and my right is on top of the left trigger finger. I pull with both fingers.
Vertical accuracy is a little better but horizontal is much improved.
 
TXAZ, in 48 years of different types of pistol competition, I have never heard of, seen that technique. Could you post a pic of what 2 triggers look like? Sounds really dangerous.
 
It is a pretty common technique for firing DA when one has weak fingers, but usually the fingers are reversed, so the right (or strong hand) finger is on the trigger and the left finger helps and supports it. There are not two triggers, of course, but two fingers pulling the same trigger.

(The old Cold Double Action Army (Model 1878) had such a hard DA pull that when the Army bought some, they requested a longer trigger for greater leverage and so two fingers could be used, in that case the index and middle finger of the same hand.)

Jim
 
Trigger slapping Triple! At today's local USPSA match classifier. Stage description, from Box A, facing up-range, turn, hands above, engage T1-T2-T3, at 10 yards out, 2 yards apart, with 2 rounds each, Virginia count, no extra shots. String 2, facing downrange, hands below, engage same. Center A zone half covered by a no-shoot, so I decide to shoot the heads for practice, no big rock on the prize table today. Most of the crew went for center A zones, and took lots of C's, D's and mikes. They were running low 3's. I ran 5.2 and 4.5. Keep in mind I can't see the hits beyond about 5 yards, so I have a slow run. But I walk up to the targets, and there it is. Grip it and Rip works, get to your nearest USPSA match and try it. It's all about gun handling, speed and accuracy. Plus it's tons of fun!

image37207.jpg
 
I ran 5.2 and 4.5.
Just back of the envelope, I'd guess about 0.7 seconds for the turn on the first string which gets the two numbers in agreement. Again, guessing, let's say 1.5 seconds on the draw leaving 3.0 seconds to shoot four shots. Four shots is three intervals so that works out to one second splits.

At what point do you find that shooting from the reset is no longer adequate and it's necessary to transition to the "trigger slap" technique to achieve the additional desired speed?
 
Take up golf.
Funny, reverse that and it is how I ended up shooting :)

Watch the sights for movement. And don't pick the best trigger in the safe for this kind of practice. I pick the worst I have--it makes the others seem very easy to control properly in comparison.
You can't beat a Nagant revolver! Really, that is what I recommend. Designed about 20# DA and 10# single action, but I swear a few I've handled were 1.5 times that. One I could hardly pull with one finger. If you learn to shoot an unmodified Nagant trigger in DA you will be able to handle any trigger with ease.
At what point do you find that shooting from the reset is no longer adequate and it's necessary to transition to the "trigger slap" technique to achieve the additional desired speed?
Why wait until you hit that point? Get every fraction of a second you can at every level, even the non-competing level. Especially if it isn't going to cost you anything and I don't see how switching to that method will cost anywhere else.

I have never been a high precision shooter and a group that I can cover with my fist has always been good enough.
Yeah, me too.

A trigger can definitely be pulled straight back.
 
John, Four shots is three intervals so that works out to one second splits.

There were 3 targets in this classifier, T1-T2-T3 at 10 yards, as described, string one, 2 on each Virginia count, string two on each, for a total of 12 rounds, 4 hits per target. For string one, 6 rounds in 3 seconds, the splits are .5, which is slow, and I said it was slow. It's more shooting B zone plates, 1/3 the width and 1/4 the height of a full target. The crew was pushing .35 splits on the body and taking D's, mikes and not shoots. Now if it were full targets, like El Prez, yea, .25 splits would be about right. And full targets would be more like Smoke and Hope from the Steel Challenge, you only need to be on the white.

At what point do you find that shooting from the reset is no longer adequate and it's necessary to transition to the "trigger slap" technique to achieve the additional desired speed?

I never shoot from reset, but have watched lots of shooters running steel stages, and it takes much longer.
 
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