Public 'threatened' by private-firearms ownership

Since "unrestricted" private ownership of guns clearly threatens the public safety, the 2nd Amendment can be interpreted to allow a variety of gun restrictions, according to the Bush administration.
I have an idea!

Why don't Bush, the officials in his administration, and their sycophants go find another country to live in, rather than trying to destroy this one?

Al Qaeda may one day kill American civilians again. Common criminals, cancer, and heart disease will kill FAR more Americans every year than Al Qaeda could ever hope to. But these threats will never kill America. Instead, Americans are going to kill America by supporting the destruction of everything America was meant to stand for. And politicians like Bush and Clinton will lead the way.

As I've said, this country was NOT founded on "public safety," "officer safety," or "law and order." These things are important, but they do NOT trump the central principle this country was founded upon, which is that the ultimate power rests with the people. That principle is obviously dead if Americans do not have the means to successfully resist their own government, if necessary.
 
Someone correct me if I'm wrong here (and I'm not really sure), but I thought Bush's solicitor general was filing an Amicus brief on OUR side in Heller.

Are we sure we have context? Do we have the whole story or part of it to fulfill someone's agenda?
 
Chris Phelps wrote:

After the story I posted from WND, I would say any of their stories are probably nothing but BS.


Just my two cents.

---------------

Chris:

I think that something might have gotten mixed up here. In any event, re the WND piece you posted re the National Guardsman tried (he was convicted) on that BS machinegun charge, and all the adverse comment it generated, I posted a link to the JPFO interview with Len Savage. A transcript of the interview is available on their site, (jpfo.org), have you read the transcript/listened to the interview. That is what I suggested a couple of your critics do. I haven't heard anything back, but will keep and eye out. BTW, WND might not be the most reliable source for information, or so some say.
 
Silly me... I thought ALL of the rights in the BoR were supposed to be fundamental rights. Y'know, right up there with life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness?

All this hullabaloo over Militia membership and who gets to really be protected by the 2nd Amendment is bovine excrement.

While the performance of militia units during the revolutionary war was far from splendid, without them it is doubtful of our independence would have been won. But to dispense with a large standing army, the only method of protection from a foreign invasion or the stirring up of trouble lay in having a well-armed populace. The ideal was a population who had been trained to arms, was organized enough to have leaders, would take orders and operate with good discipline.

The right of the individual to protect himself and family against corrupt officials - such as those employed by the crown government - was also paramount. Without arms the individual could offer little effective resistance against corrupt officials, nor could he effectively serve in the militia without instruction on using arms. Having their own arms, however, allowed them to learn their efficient use on their own.

Our Constitution showed that the rights of the individual were paramount, such as in the 1st, 4th and 5th Amendments that protect free speech, require warrants for arrests and searches, require speedy due process locally and provide for the accused's right to a defense. The powers of the government were to be limited and the threshold for removing a person's liberty were high.

It would seem odd then, in light of the contribution of both individuals and militia as well as the emphasis on individual rights, that the founders would intend to restrict the general public from owning arms -- the same arms which they may be called upon to use at a moment's notice -- and/or require membership in any governmental organization before exercising a right to resist that same government.
 
how did the original 13 states feel about private arms?...

Let's see if i can find all of these :) (I'm searching from wikipedia, then linking off to usually a state site for the document. This changes midway thru)

here's Virginia's take on militia, Article 1 section 13 I think it's called
XIII That a well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the proper, natural, and safe defense of a free state; that standing armies, in time of peace, should be avoided as dangerous to liberty; and that, in all cases, the military should be under strict subordination to, and be governed by, the civil power.

for Maine, it's article I section 16
Section 16. To keep and bear arms. Every citizen has a right to keep and bear arms and this right shall never be questioned.
interestingly, a later article for Maine's constitution talks directly about the National Guard. I'm gonna guess that was added in more recent history??

For New Hampshire, their's is intriguing. Article 2:
[Art.] 2. [Natural Rights.] All men have certain natural, essential, and inherent rights - among which are, the enjoying and defending life and liberty; acquiring, possessing, and protecting, property; and, in a word, of seeking and obtaining happiness. Equality of rights under the law shall not be denied or abridged by this state on account of race, creed, color, sex or national origin.

June 2, 1784

Amended 1974 adding sentence to prohibit discrimination.

[Art.] 2-a. [The Bearing of Arms.] All persons have the right to keep and bear arms in defense of themselves, their families, their property and the state.

December 1, 1982
did you notice the bearing arms was added in 1982. Interesting

Now to Articles 24 - 27
[Art.] 24. [Militia.] A well regulated militia is the proper, natural, and sure defense, of a state.

June 2, 1784

[Art.] 25. [Standing Armies.] Standing armies are dangerous to liberty, and ought not to be raised, or kept up, without the consent of the legislature.

June 2, 1784

[Art.] 26. [Military Subject to Civil Power.] In all cases, and at all times, the military ought to be under strict subordination to, and governed by, the civil power.

June 2, 1784

[Art.] 27. [Quartering of Soldiers.] No soldier in time of peace, shall be quartered in any house, without the consent of the owner; and in time of war, such quarters ought not to be made but by the civil authorities in a manner ordained by the legislature.

June 2, 1784
Amended in 1980 substituting "authorities" for "magistrate."

On to Massachusetts, lets start with Article 1
Article I. All men are born free and equal, and have certain natural, essential, and unalienable rights; among which may be reckoned the right of enjoying and defending their lives and liberties; that of acquiring, possessing, and protecting property; in fine, that of seeking and obtaining their safety and happiness.
I like how it's built right in the start that defending one's life and liberties and protecting property, are listed as "unalienable rights"

next is Article XVII
Article XVII. The people have a right to keep and to bear arms for the common defence. And as, in time of peace, armies are dangerous to liberty, they ought not to be maintained without the consent of the legislature; and the military power shall always be held in an exact subordination to the civil authority, and be governed by it.
I found this constitution to be strangely interesting. It's very plain it's crafters were concerned with Christians rights and morality and piety. If one were to desire complaining about a Theocracy, this one sounds a lot like one ;)

and Connecticut, Article First, Sec 15
SEC. 15. Every citizen has a right to bear arms in defense of himself and the state.

anyone else noticing a trend here? I've been noticing a lot of "bear arms in defence of one's self and property" in these so far

for Rhode Island, Article I section 22
Section 22. Right to bear arms. -- The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

(at this point, I could not figure out NY's ruling on arms, so started a broader search, and came upon this UCLA law school page on all the states arms provisions. Since I've done so much already, I'm not going back and starting over for consistency of how the data is displayed, sorry)

next is New York, or was going to be. While investigating NY, I've found that NY, New Jersey, and Maryland have NO arms provisions.

On to Pennsylvania then, Article 13
The right of the citizens to bear arms in defence of themselves and the State shall not be questioned. Art. 1, § 21 (enacted 1790, art. IX, § 21).
1776: That the people have a right to bear arms for the defence of themselves and the state; and as standing armies in the time of peace are dangerous to liberty, they ought not to be kept up; And that the military should be kept under strict subordination, to, and governed by, the civil power. Declaration of Rights, cl. XIII.

And Delaware,
person has the right to keep and bear arms for the defense of self, family, home and State, and for hunting and recreational use. Art. I, § 20 (enacted 1987)
Since this doesn't include an 18th century mention, back to wiki for a bit...well, seems there was a 1776 constitution, but I can't for the life of me find a copy, der.

so, on to North Carolina,
North Carolina: A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed; and, as standing armies in time of peace are dangerous to liberty, they shall not be maintained, and the military shall be kept under strict subordination to, and governed by, the civil power. Nothing herein shall justify the practice of carrying concealed weapons, or prevent the General Assembly from enacting penal statutes against that practice. Art. 1, § 30 (enacted 1971).
1776: "That the people have a right to bear arms, for the defence of the State; and, as standing armies, in time of peace, are dangerous to liberty, they ought not to be kept up; and that the military should be kept under strict subordination to, and governed by, the civil power." Bill of Rights, § XVII.
1868: "A well-regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed; and, as standing armies, in time of peace, are dangerous to liberty, they ought not to be kept up, and the military should be kept under strict subordination to, and governed by, the civil power." Art. I, § 24.
1875: Same as 1868, but added "Nothing herein contained shall justify the practice of carrying concealed weapons, or prevent the Legislature from enacting penal statutes against said practice."
this last part brings up something funny I noticed. There seem to be several states, like Missouri and Mississippi as well, that in 1875 added "no concealed carry" provisions. I just found that sort of funny :)
 
had to cut part of it off and make a 2nd reply :)

and for South Carolina,
North Carolina: A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed; and, as standing armies in time of peace are dangerous to liberty, they shall not be maintained, and the military shall be kept under strict subordination to, and governed by, the civil power. Nothing herein shall justify the practice of carrying concealed weapons, or prevent the General Assembly from enacting penal statutes against that practice. Art. 1, § 30 (enacted 1971).
1776: "That the people have a right to bear arms, for the defence of the State; and, as standing armies, in time of peace, are dangerous to liberty, they ought not to be kept up; and that the military should be kept under strict subordination to, and governed by, the civil power." Bill of Rights, § XVII.
1868: "A well-regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed; and, as standing armies, in time of peace, are dangerous to liberty, they ought not to be kept up, and the military should be kept under strict subordination to, and governed by, the civil power." Art. I, § 24.
1875: Same as 1868, but added "Nothing herein contained shall justify the practice of carrying concealed weapons, or prevent the Legislature from enacting penal statutes against said practice."

and finally Georgia has this to say:
Georgia: The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed, but the General Assembly shall have power to prescribe the manner in which arms may be borne. Art. I, § 1, ¶ VIII (enacted 1877, art. I, § XXII).
1865: "A well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." Art. I, § 4.
1868: "A well-regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free people, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed; but the general assembly shall have power to prescribe by law the manner in which arms may be borne." Art. I, § 14.
I found this one interesting that after the Civil War, they added the proviso as to how the arms are borne.

so, I must say I'm a little shocked that 3 of the states had nothing to say other than in regards to how their militia's would be ordered. But overall, I can't see how anyone analyzing the 2nd Amendment could possibly conclude it is meant as a collective right. There is a very clear statement that we have the right to protection of ourselves, and our property.

As the supreme court takes on the DC case, I sure hope this obvious view of the founders is brought up. In no cases do there seem to be a desire for a collective right only to arms ownership. And when one includes the militia comments of each state, it is again very evident they expected all able bodied men not only own, but be proficient in the use of arms.

And I'd have to say, a move back in that direction would be very healthy for our country as a whole.

this ends up as more than 13 but it seems Maine was a part of Mass back then, and Vermont didn't seem to be an actual colony at the time. I'd forgotten that :)
 
>Someone correct me if I'm wrong here (and I'm not really sure), but I thought >Bush's solicitor general was filing an Amicus brief on OUR >side in Heller.
>
>Are we sure we have context? Do we have the whole story or part of it to fulfill >someone's agenda?


If you read the spin used in the most recent NRA email you would believe that the brief was in support of the 2nd amendment. The bottom line though, is that the brief is full of doubletalk and does _not_ recognize the _fact_ that the 2nd amendment is absolute (just as all other rights are). Basically, the administration version of things is that the 2nd amendment "allows" people to have whatever weapons the government says we are allowed to have, and nothing more (as it is THEY who decide what the definition of "reasonable restrictions" is). In other words, their view is that the 2nd amendment is not a right, but a privilege. All the flowery wording in the world doesn't change the fact that they're not supporting our rights though (for instance, "reasonable restrictions" does NOT equal "shall not be infringed").

It's sad, but the NRA leadership is enabling the Bush administrations untrue version of things. They are actually helping the enemies of freedom fight _against_ the 2nd amendment! In my view the NRA is the Jesse Jackson of the gun rights world. Meaning they don't really support the 2nd amendment. All they really support is keeping the issue stirred up so they can keep collecting money from people who _think_ they're trying to help us.

The WND article is the unwashed truth without any butt kissers trying to make us believe the bush administration isn't reaming us with a telephone pole.

As for the inevitable argument that rights aren't absolute... well that's just bull squat because if they're not absolute then they are _privileges_, not rights.

Anyone who tries to tell us that our _rights_ are limited is either: A) a fool; or B) an enemy of freedom.

End of discussion.
 
As for the inevitable argument that rights aren't absolute... well that's just bull squat because if they're not absolute then they are _privileges_, not rights.

Anyone who tries to tell us that our _rights_ are limited is either: A) a fool; or B) an enemy of freedom.

So, does that mean you advocate legalizing;
Unrestrained freedom of the press or freedom of speech, including;
- Libel
- Slander
- Yelling "fire" in a crowded theatre
- inciting to riot
- inciting to lynchings

Unrestrained freedom of religion, even if that religion includes;
- Kidnapping
- psychological abuse of minors
- torture for transgressions
- sexual abuse of children
- institutionalized slavery (against women or children)

Rights are not absolute and may be limited by very narrowly tailored restrictions to prohibit injuring or damaging actions.
 
Rights are not absolute and may be limited by very narrowly tailored restrictions to prohibit injuring or damaging actions.
The cynical response to that idea would be: In a free state most gun related killings would be also crime related (criminal on criminal or citizen on criminal) so if the government just recused itself entirely and allowed universal unrestricted RKBA then Darwin would take care of the whole thing in a generation or two. :rolleyes:
 
BillCA,

I understand the point you're making, but I would argue that those acts you mention are not rights, and few would consider them to be such.

Acts that harm the innocent are never rights. Neither are acts that needlessly endanger people or make it too difficult to have a functioning society.

When it comes to weapons, I'd say people have the right to own any weapon that, when used properly and responsibly against an aggressor or for practice, doesn't necessarily pose a danger to innocent people. This is somewhat subject to interpretation, but I think it's clear that any weapon the police can be trusted with should be available to the public as well.
 
What part of the..." the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed" doesn't our learned DOJ not understand?
 
Bill, keep in mind freedoms exist for everyone, and the aspect of "freedom of speech" etc. that people tend to forget is, "you have the right to exercise your freedoms any way you see fit, AS LONG AS that exercising your freedoms doesn't take away another person's freedom".

If you look at the list of items you posted, in each case, they require one or a group of persons to take away another person's rights in order to exercise the things you listed. You are free to libel and slander someone in our country, happens all the time, just look at the tabloids. But that doesn't mean you are free of being charged in a lawsuit with libel and slander. If you think about it, you're free to be a criminal as well, and the government is free to arrest you for it :)

but getting back on track :) if you think about the 'right' to free speech, that speech was intended to allow the "people" to speak against the Government without repercussion, correct? Since when did the 1A mean you could say anything? I don't think it ever did. Free speech requires responsibility that it is believed you are speaking truthfully. Intentional slander, lieing, speaking against someone with knowingly false statements has always been considered wrong and potential for a lawsuit.

it's really no different with the 2A. We have the right to keep and bear arms, and yes, being as it's suppose to be without infringement, that would mean any weapons used by military infantryman should be accessible to the regular man, as if they are ever needed for militia service, it's their personal weapons that would be used, not state supplied weapons since the state isn't stockpiling weapons for that purpose. So what good are the militia fighters if they only have bolt action rifles and double barrel shotguns and whomever they need to fight is using real assault weapons?? And to go with the RKBA, there is the responsibility to not use those weapons incorrectly or recklessly. The RKBA has never made murder acceptable. It's never not made armed robbery or other armed criminal activities those with the highest penalties.

The 1A and 2A require the 'people' to use them responsibly, they do not remove the misuse of them from prosecution. Now, as to something like a machine gun, I think there should be no restriction on ownership, but there being a restriction that only in a time of the militia being called into service would they be allowed to be carried lock and loaded. Want to go to the range, fine, as today, it should be unloaded etc. I would also think it reasonable that being it's purpose would be only for times the militia would get called up (you can't effectively argue a machine gun is an effective hunting weapon) that such weapons need to be locked up in such a fashion that a child in the house (i.e. your out of control teenager who wants to do another columbine) can NOT access it.

As I think most people recognize, a machine gun isn't a reasonable HD or SD weapon. Would you really want to fire a MG in your home with your family in the house?? Considering most of the rounds you would fire would likely exit the house, and if you live in my type of neighborhood, enter into a neighbors house if you are aiming at the sides of the house, I'd consider that extremely reckless use.

So in our countries current state, there is not much cause or need to fire a MG anywhere other than a range. But I don't think we should be banned from owning them. And considering the number of states with Constitutions that plainly state the people have the right to self defense and protection of property, I can't see how any of those states could have laws preventing CCW. That of course leaves states like NY, NJ, MD which have NO RKBA proviso's to not allow them if they so choose. It would be nice though if they would honor the other states residents RKBA.
 
shut down the Federal Reserve, have the Government actually take back the printing of money, and a lot of these issues will go away. We are currently beholden to the bankers, and bankers hate free people who are not under the thumb of their credit machines.
 
You know, the whole machine gun thing gives me trouble. There’s no doubt that the 2nd Amendment is for the purpose of insuring that the people always retain the “actual” ability to retake their country in the event of an oppressive government be it foreign or domestic. With that in mind, for the 2nd Amendment to be of any real value it should apply to machine guns as well and even heavy machine guns, crew served weapons like the M60 or the M2.

All that being said I really do see a genuine problem with these kinds of weapons being freely available to the general public.

I absolutely believe that if the 2nd Amendment is to actually mean anything, if it is to provide the security it was intended to, then the accessibility of these kinds of weapons needs to be real and available to pretty much anyone. On the other hand there are a lot of people out there who have no business having any kind of gun, especially a machine gun.


Perhaps some kind of vetting system that requires passing a bit more scrutiny. I don’t know but it does seem like a bit of a dilemma.

And BTW, watching the direction of our country and world politics and affairs I believe the 2nd Amendment is more important today than it has ever been since the revolution.
 
"Shall not be infringed..."

Agreed, mostly.

So, those of you for the Absolute side of things:

Prisoners?
Mental Patients?

If there's no such thing as a "reasonable restriction," then you have to allow these individuals their right.
 
Do you read any thing in the 2rd that mentions Full Auto, or 20mm? I don't see it.

I don't see the words 105mm Ether!


It clearly state ARMS! Past Present And future is covered by the term.


Just my Stupid Red Neck Thoughts!:D
 
A prisoner has been denied his liberty by due process of law. Try not to be silly here, it makes you sound like a Department of Justice amicus brief.

All that being said I really do see a genuine problem with these kinds of weapons being freely available to the general public.
I guess that's why our nation's violent crime rate dropped so significantly after these gun bans were enacted, eh?

What's that, you say? No drop? How can that be?? The government said that if only I gave up essential liberty I'd gain some temporary safety!!
 
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