psychotherapy courtesy of .454Casull

psychotherapy and 454 Casull

qhorseman wrote "I'd be careful if you download to the .45 Colt level with .454 brass. In both the Ruger and the Tarus you can use .45 Colt brass, which is better for light loads. I personally never use light loads in the .454, staying with what is a very hot .45 Colt or mild .454 using either HS6 or Unique. I do about the same with the .475.

I have heard of potential problems with very light loads in .454 brass due to the fill factor. "

What problems have you heard about? In my winter indoor pistol league, when we're done with our 22 Bullseye match I often get my FA 454's out and shoot loads in .454 brass that are loaded like .45LC. The club lets me shoot my .454 in there if it's loaded like a .45LC - we don't want backstop damage. I've never experienced any problems and would appreciate knowing what the problems you've heard of.
 
Gotta chime in here. With proper bullet selection and very careful load assembly, a 45 Colt case can be pushed to 454 performance. This is not in dispute. But the 454 case is in fact stronger than the 45 Colt. It is true that Casull did use 45 Colt brass to develop his loads. But when the 454 case was designed, it was not only lengthened beyond its' parent case, but it was given a thicker web for reinforcement. The 45 Colt may be up to the job, but the 454 case has a margin of safety built in that the 45 Colt doesn't. If you already own a 454 revolver, I see absolutely no reason to hot rod 45 Colt cases to use in it. 454 brass really isn't that expensive, but it is stronger. Not that you can't do it with 45 Colt cases, but if you have a stronger case that is available to you, why not use it?
 
From the Winchester website, and cartridges for hunting.

A 454Casull 260gr Supreme Partition Gold has
Muzzle: 1800fps - 1871ft-lbs
50 yds: 1605fps - 1488ft-lbs
100yds: 1427fps - 1176ft-lbs
BC=0.176 BBL:7.5inches

A 44Mag 250gr Supreme Partition Gold has
Muzzle: 1230fps - 840ft-lbs
50 yds: 1132fps - 711ft-lbs
100yds: 1057fps - 620ft-lbs
BC=0.196 BBL:6.5inches

A 454Casull has more energy at 100yds than a 44Mag does at the muzzle! And this is with a lower BC bullet!

The loads that most manufacturers come out with for 45Colt is wimpy, because they might be shot out of old guns that can't handle it like the modern ones like Ruger Redhawks and SuperRedhawks.

As far as reloading for 45Colt to 454Casull levels, just one word... DON'T. 454Casull cases are not expensive, if you compare it to peace of mind and hospital bills. Load 45Colt brass to 45Colt levels, and 454Casull to 454Casull levels. You can always go down, but going up is bad.
 
454 brass

454 Casull brass has slightly thicker case walls than the 45 LC in addition to using a small primer pocket (utilizing small rifle magnum primers) as opposed to the 45 LC which uses a large primer. The small primer pocket increases the amount of brass in the case head giving even more strength to the casing.
 
According to my loading manual the 454 casull has a ssami ave pressure If I got that right at 65,000 psi nothing comes close to that.44 mag runs at 36,000. the 45 colt runs at 14,000,and for ruger or contender you can bump It up to 25,000 psi. none of these are even close to 65,000 psi. In my opion trying to get 454 performance out of a 45 colt Is foolhardy and going to end In a destroyed firearm or worse. I think It was more than liability concerns when dick casull developed 454 brass. Those pressures say It all. Loading manual speer 13 th edition.
 
The Sniper....

That is a very sexy gun! I may just have to pick one of those up one of these days. Too bad someone at my local shop picked up the only one in the store, only to sell it back. They probably couldn't handle the recoil, but now I'd be stuck with getting a used gun with no warranty, at pretty close to retail price!
 
Sniper,

I noticed that you have the finger groved grips on you .454. Do you find that this style handles recoil better than the original from Ruger? Thanks.

Mike
 
There are some misconceptions on this thread that I would like to clear up. Forgive the long post, but I'll try to categorize them with minimal extra details.

Large bullet selection compared to just about anything else in the hogleg class. From 185gr to 405gr. Brass is not cheap, but similar to 10mm in availability and price. Factory-load-only folks can choose from a number of available loads for different purposes. But this is a reloader's cartridge, for sure, as it is nearly as idiot-proof as the 357, and about as flexible too. Of course, idiot can be defined at many levels of competence...

Things to watch out for:

45LC jacketed bullets are not normally designed to rotate at the speeds 454 is intended to achieve. The 225gr speer, for instance, literally disentigrates at 1800fps, before hitting the target.

The Taurus, especially, is designed for a .452 diameter bullet.

Most anything you shoot will produce enough recoil to require a crimp cannelure. The old trick of roll crimping over the shoulder of a 45ACP bullet should be avoided.

The cylinder is loose, and the cylinder throat is tight. Use only 454 brass, not 45LC, full-length size the brass, maintain precise trim lengths, and do not seat the bullets long.

Roll crimp them heavily. They will grow over time like rifle brass, unlike any cartridge I've seen. After 7 firings, they may develop splits, just toss them. Annealing is a waste, except for dedicated brass for ultralite loads. And even then, it is not worth doing if you are unsure of how (can create a dangerous/frustrating problem).

Here is why you don't pump the 45LC to 454 levels, and why annealing is a waste. The 454 was developed with a small primer pocket, but a large flashhole. That is so you can use stronger rifle primers to contain the pressure, and still get the fire to ignite a ball powder load. And by the time you reach 7 or 8 medium to hot loadings, where annealing seems helpful, you will have strethed the primer pockets from the pressure. I have some after 10 loads that you can prime with the pressure of your thumb. Considering the thicker web on the 454, how long do you think it will take to do this to a 45LC cartridge?

Don't shoot 45LC rounds from the taurus, especially not lead. This may be just fine in a 38/357 gun, but the cylinder throat has a hard ridge, not a gentle one like older wheelguns. This is true of all 3 models (Taurus, Ruger, FA). Especially on the taurus, the loose cylinder and tight throat with sharp edge causes blowback and debris so quickly that you will spend twice as long cleaning the cylinder as the barrel, and still may not be done. In addition, it causes jacket shedding more often than not. 45LC brass, .451 jacketed bullets and higher velocity will almost always spit copper, and this often causes action problems as well.

For 454lites or ultralites, lead with a gas check are best. The lower pressures don't cause the obturation you need for the "beartooth" style stuff. For powder in a light load, Unique is top dawg. It does not really care if you fill the case or not, what the temp is, and isn't even picky about magnum vs regular primers. A 255 over 10gr Unique makes for about 1000fps, roughly, which is a good 45LC load.

The 480 and 475 family is more expensive and less available, at least for now. Good calibers, but closer to wildcat at this point, sorta like the 454 was 15 years ago. The 44 mag and 45LC can't touch it in potential, and you can download if you want (I do for various reasons). There is now a lever action rifle for this cartridge too, but that's a different debate.

Aside from customs and one-offs, there are 4 wheelguns for this bad boy.

-> BFR. Heard iffy things about QC on these, and besides, if that's your platform, why not 444 or 450 magnum?

-> FA. If you like 19th century designs, this is the best of the 19th century that the 21st century has to offer. I have broken one. They are not magic. But they sure do look purty.

-> Ruger. Double action, 6 shots, and I hear the scope rings handle this cartridge fine. Probably the reason the FA is so pretty is because they wore out the ugly stick on the SRH, but some people wear that designation as a badge of honor. If you like the big ruger grips or the aftermarket grips that fit this platform, you should be happy. Porting would be a major improvement, but it should be about as reliable as a rock in the desert. Kind of like a Glock, you either like the SRH or you hate it. Decent pricetag.

-> Taurus. The lettering is really cheesy, which is a shame, because the lines are really clean and modern. The grip is much closer to a S&W, Dan Wesson custom, or a Colt Anaconda. This really takes some bite out of the cartridge. The factory porting works wonders as well, though I believe the grip has more to do with recoil reduction and controllability than people think. Double action, 5 shots, the trigger is a little stiff for competition, but IMO just about right for a field pistol. The scope mount looks ultra trick, but in reality it sucks. You get what you pay for with this one, and I have gotten more than my money out of it. It still serves me in IHMSA competition, and is still far more consistent and accurate than I am, standing, factory sights, at 50-200 meters. Then again, I can't hit that proverbial barn 2 out of 3 times. This is the design that should be merged with the FA quality.
 
I bought my 454 shortly after Ruger starting selling theirs.I chose Ruger because it had 6 shots,was under a grand,and I've had good luck with Ruger.If you're thinking of getting one,DO IT.You wont regret it.I don't understand why people try to load the 45LC to perform like the 454.If you want the performance of a 454 why not buy one.


As an afterthought,I read somewhere that the 454 has about the same chamber pressure as a 300 Mag.,which is why they use the rifle primers.All that power in the palm of your hand.That will put a smile on your face!:D
 
Mike-socal, it doesnt change the recoil but (for me) it has helped my offhand grouping. On a good day I can shoot 2-3" groups offhand and standing at 100yds. It was worth the $18 for the grips. They are houge grips made for the gp100 if I remember correctly.:D
 
Pigshooter

Nice post. I always seat and then crimp in two steps with both the .475 and the .454. I have started using a Lee Factory Crimp for the .454 and really like it. It is essential that the crimp be very heavy for proper ignition.

In answer to your question, rick_reno, small charges in a large case are not good and may lead to problems. That is the main reason that I do not load anything lighter than about 12 grains of HS6. I personally would not trus something like 4 grains of Beye in the .454 case.

Both of my guns are FA and I love them. The tolerances are just incredible. My big guy has the best trigger pull of any handgun I own, including several with considerable gunsmith work.
 
I love my 454 Casull in SuperRedhawk & 454 Rossi Puma rifle, 454 seems to have hot loads even at the min load, This cal is a sleeper for sure, I have shot most of the factory loads,bye far Hornadys 300 gr is the hottest, In my Ruger the cases got stuck:( 260 gr Partitiongolds shot very well and ejected well no hangups still on the hot side, 250 gr winchester X shot the best in the ruger not as hot, the 300 gr Hornadys shot the best in the Puma. I reloaded using WW296/H110 using sm/rifle primers(Remington)Winchester brass using Hornady XTP 300/250 gr, I use a single stage Rockchucker seat/crimp in two stages and hand trickel every load for performance and accuracy, I noticed Max loads are very hot:D man my wrist after 20 rounds of those, Give me a aspirin LOL Note:make sure when purchasing Hornady .452 300/250 gr bullets to make sure the box says Mag on it, if not they are for the 45LC different profile. Some of the sports shop workers are not aware of this. Aim small hit small. RAMbo.
 
wow!

I have to say, I wasn't expecting nearly this kind of response!:eek: you guys have been a lot of help. after I pay off the Kahr MK40 I'm getting, I'm going to check out the Ruger SRH to see if I like it better than the Taurus.

thanks a lot for all the help!:D

Erik
 
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