psychotherapy courtesy of .454Casull

after owning a Beretta 92F for a year, and only really firing autos (except for my buddies S&W 586.. usually 38special loads), I went out to the range today and rented a Taurus Raging Bull in .454 Casull.. all I've got to say is: WHEEEEEE!!!!! I'm not sure about the Taurus in particular, as it seems there's a whole lot of horror stories flying around about them, but I definetly see a large caliber wheelgun in my future! how do .45LC and .44 Magnum compare to the .454 Casull? does anyone else make a reasonably priced .454 besides Taurus?
 
I've shot both a Taurus Raging Bull and a Ruger Super Redhawk in 454 and the Ruger handles better for me so I bought one (around $500-$550). I too like the recoil most of the time but more than about 20-30 rounds at a sitting and it begins to wear on a person. The 454 is in a class of it's own in recoil and power compared to the 45 LC and even the 44 mag. The Ruger will also shoot 45 LC from the same gun. If you get a 454 buy a reloading setup and learn to reload if you don't already because the price of shooting is very spendy ($1.00+ per factory round). This is one caliber that reloading reduces the price to shoot significantly.
 
Welcome to the wonderful world of Big Bore Revlovers..:D

Comparing the 9mm to 10mm to a 44 mag and Casull ...hmmm.
How about 1000 FPE vs 2000 FPE sound?...more like 5 9mms to 3 10mms....:D
Now you need to try a Maxine BFR 45-70 Govt Revolver with HOT 425 gr reloads....HELLO! Its actually not that much worse than a Cowboy style Casull with EVIL reloads...

Shooting the different Casulls..The Raging Bull with its porting and rubber back strap is like shooting a hot 44 mag when compared to a Ruger/Casull/BFR cowboy style gun..no porting and solid steel back straps make a little difference in the recoil that comes back to you....quite a bit of difference.

Shoot well
 
Hi headaches :D

I would recommend that you buy 2 "Macho"-Wheelguns.

A .44 Mag AND a .454 Casull!

The .44 Mag is just right for your everyday shooting and the best thing about this caliber is that you'll stay sane and healthy even after firing thousands of rounds.
The .454 Casull is something special. Shoot it once in a month and it is a refreshing experience.
Shoot it every day and you can expect some health problems (damage to the joints and tendons in your hands and arms).

I recommend a S&W 629 Classic in .44Mag and a Freedom Arms Field Grade Revolver in .454 Casull.
 
The ,454C is about 1.25-2.00 times the power (energy) of the .44mag [factory]. The .45LC is well below the .454C in factory form simply for the reason that most guns chambered for .45LC cannot handle anything more powerful. The .45LC can be reloaded to the mid range of .454C but that extra ~1mm in case length of the .454C will always surpass it in power.


Power. Some is good, more is better. Welcome to magnum power.
 
Be careful loading up 45LC for 454

You can load some "hot" 45LC loads to use in a 454, but don't stray too far into unknown territory as most 45LC brass is designed for the relatively low pressure of the 45LC cartridge. I've seen several shooters with 454's locked up because of extruded primer pockets and seperated case heads as the resutl of trying to load up a bunch of extra hot loads using cheaper 45LC brass.

Brad
 
ok... now here's another question, though.... so. I now know that i can download to a 45LC.. now, just for s&g's, can I also load 45ACP with a moon clip? that would make purchasing one even more justifiable, not that I need more justification.


oh.. Krautgunner? you're the first person who's ever translated my handle.. just to make sure, did I spell it correctly?
 
as most 45LC brass is designed for the relatively low pressure of the 45LC cartridge.

Not true. 45 Colt brass isn't designed any differently than 44 Mag or any other brass. You can easily use standard 45 Colt brass and load up 454 Casull level loads without any problems.

Will the myth of weak 45 Colt brass never die?
 
@ Kopfschmerzen:

YESSIR, your spelling is impeccable!!! :)

I recommend two Aspirin and a good long sleep and you'll have to change your nickname afterwards. :D
 
Go for it!

I have the .44 Mag Raging Bull. Lots of fun!! And to think I almost sold it yesterday. Man, that was a close call. Unless your hunting, I wouldn't go the extra $$ for the .454 But I understand that you can shoot .45LC in teh .454 to save some money on ammo.
 
OK. A lot of what's going on here is that when you run a bigger case capacity, you can do the same work as a smaller case at less "peak pressure", which means lower felt recoil, less stress on the gun, etc.

That's where the 480 comes in - it was an attempt to get a bit below .454C power levels and with a LOT less wrist stress.

To understand why this works, John Linebaugh has written a ton of material on why he prefers .45LC to .44Mag. His documentation and evidence is at:

http://www.sixgunner.com/linebaugh - esp. everything under "gunnotes".

This is basically a look into Linebaugh's early work, and explains why he went towards the .475Linebaugh and .500Linebaugh later. The .480 is basically the .475Linebaugh shortened a bit.

That said, there's a major disadvantage to the 480 - there are no "under-power factory loads", so no cheap practice unless you're a reloader.

With .454C, you can get Cowboy-grade plinking loads fairly cheap and at very low power levels, and go up from there in stages. The best factory 45LC+P matches or slightly exceeds .44Mag ballistics while recoilings...not exactly "less", but with lower peak pressure you get more of a "drawn-out-push" versus a "sharp snap". See also Linebaugh's stuff in the link.
 
Headhurting, the .454 is really great caliber. I just got its big brother, a .475. Love them both. Both of them are FA's. I'd be careful if you download to the .45 Colt level with .454 brass. In both the Ruger and the Tarus you can use .45 Colt brass, which is better for light loads. I personally never use light loads in the .454, staying with what is a very hot .45 Colt or mild .454 using either HS6 or Unique. I do about the same with the .475.

I have heard of potential problems with very light loads in .454 brass due to the fill factor. I do not believe that you can shoot half-moons with any of the .454's. I agree with the Kraut (meine vater was eine Hamburger) that a .44 makes sense as a first big-bore, mearly for cost and ease of shooting and availability of ammo.:D
 
45 weak brass

JohnK - sorry, but I have to respectfully disagree.

I spent most of the afternoon last year trying to get apart a friend's 454 Ruger SRH after an extruded primer pocket locked it up tight. After I got it apart, I found that the offending case was a 45LC piece that had gotten mixed in with the 454 brass. The 454 brass showed no signs of pressure problems, but the 45LC case was swelled the entire length of the case, including the case head, and the entire rear of the case head was bulged enough that it had pushed part of the primer cup back into the firing pin port.

We went back to his reloading bench and found the box of 45LC brass that the offending case had probably come from. Out of curiosity we took a dremel to a couple of cases. When visually compared to the 454 brass, the 45LC brass was noticeably thinner, especially around the case head and primer pocket.

Granted, these were extreme pressure hunting loads, and there would probably not have been a problem at more sedate pressures. But the bottom line is that there was a difference in the brass, and that a 454 load in the weaker 45LC brass did indeed cause a problem.

Brad
 
I would guess there was something wrong with that particular batch of brass, or maybe oversize chambers - but you'd expect to see problems with the 454 then as well. 45 Colt brass is what Dick Casull used when developing the 454, and it's what John Linebaugh and Hamilton Bowen use in their high pressure 5 shot 45 Colts as well.

I'll refer you to the writings of someone with a lot more experience building and loading high pressure 45 Colts than I have:
DISSOLVING THE MYTH, DISCOVERING THE POTENTIAL

John Linebaugh's GUNNOTES

Based on what you experienced Brad and what Linebaugh reports I wonder if that particular SRH 454 had over sized chambers and the thicker 454 brass allowed the high pressure loads to work in spite of that. If so I'd say that is a testiment to the strength of that brass but not a problem with 45 Colt brass. The original comment was that 45 Colt brass was designed for standard 45 Colt pressures, around 15,000 CUP as I recall, current 45 Colt brass functions fine, according to Linebaugh, into the 50,000 CUP range (not to be used in standard Redhawks or Blackhawks!) which is right up into the pressure range of the 454 Casull.
 
I suppose

I will certainly tip my hat to Dick Casull and his research into high-pressure handgun cartridges, and there is no doubt that he is one of the foremost authorities on the subject. I also respect John Linbaugh for his development. I wasn't trying to slight anyone's research or experience. I was simply trying to give a real-life situation where the strength of the brass was the most likely culprit in a pressure-related case failure.

I have to bow to practicality and admit that most 45LC brass is probably okay. However, I'm not comfortable making a blanket statement that "there is no such thing as weak 45LC brass" simply because I have observed, firsthand, a visible difference between two sectioned cases. The .454 Casull and .475 Linebaugh using minimum working pressures that exceed the maximum working pressure of most handgun cartridges. Yes, 45LC cases were used in load development for the 454 Casull, but the even Dick Casull eventually bowed to safety concerns and had a case developed exclusively for his personal powerhouse. Based almost on this fact alone I cannot in good faith recommend that anyone use anything except cartridges engineered and developed specifically for these applications.

By the way, this has turned into good thread with lots of info and a stimulating debate. Let's keep it up.

Safe Shooting
Brad
 
Brad, are you saying that your friend loaded a full house .454 load in a .45 Colt case ? If that is what I happened, I agree; .454 brass is stronger than .45 Colt brass. However, .45 Colt brass is as strong as .44 Mag brass.

You are probably aware, but early .45 Colt brass was of the "baloon head" variety. This type of brass hasn't been made for many, many years. However a myth still circulates that .45 Colt brass is weak because of the early case design while in reality, modern .45 Colt brass is every bit as strong as any other "normal" brass. The .454 is in a league all it's own as far as pressure is concerned. As a result, special brass was introduced for use in that caliber.
 
He did indeed

He did indeed load a max pressure 454 hunting load in a 45LC case. It's a testament to the strength of the case that the it only bulged. I would have thought that the case head would have seperated entirely under that kind of overpressure.

I don't doubt that modern 45LC brass is plenty strong. I have a couple of buddies who load hunting cartridges for their 45LC Blackhawks using published "Ruger Only" loading data with ballistics square in the middle of 44 mag territory. They are also VERY diligent about making sure that these little monsters are carefully stored and marked so they don't find their way into some unsuspecting shooter's SAA.

Brad
 
Ah, but I didn't say there's no such thing as weak 45 Colt brass, any manufacturer can turn out a bad batch that's weak, I said that 45 Colt brass isn't weak. Just because 454 Casull brass is stronger doesn't mean others are weak, just less strong.

Out of curiousity did your friend ever load any other warm loads with that brass in that gun and have any problems? Not 454 level loads just "Blackhawk" level?

even Dick Casull eventually bowed to safety concerns and had a case developed exclusively for his personal powerhouse.

I belive I've read he did this because of liability and not wanting someone to put his high pressure loads in a standard 45 Colt, not because he needed more strength from the brass. Switching from a large primer pocket to small and using small rifle primers was because he wanted an additional safety margin though so maybe he wanted the extra margin for the rest of the case as well. It's to bad that Freedom Arms doesn't have a 'History of the 454' page, I think it would be fascinating reading.
 
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