Pros and cons of open carry

J

John/az2

New member
I have been thinking that even though I have my CCL, Arizona being an open carry state, it might be better for the education of those who are ignorant of their right, and even obligation, to personal protection, to carry openly. I remember that when I did, I was asked more than several times why I carried.

I had to ask myself recently, in light of the discussion on the Legal & Political board about answers to the question, "Why do you carry?" now that I am better armed :D with some very good answers, why not carry openly and invite the question?

I even toyed with the idea of having a t-shirt made that said something to the effect of, "It's alright, go ahead and ask me!" :D

I'm inviting comments.

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John/az

"Just because something is popular, does not make it right."
 
As long as you have the proper holster and are ready for the questions/attitudes.. I think it sounds cool.

Hopefully, you weren't thinking of an open top SOB holster ;)!

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-Essayons
 
Personally, If I was a criminal wanting to rob a bank, the person carrying openly in the bank would be the first ones I'd shoot.

Of course, if everyone carried openly, that would be a different story.
 
John/az2,

Open carry is something you should really think hard about. As a certified handgun and personal defense instructor, I can tell you that I advise all my students to carry concealed and strongly suggest that they keep the number of people who know they carry to a minimum.

I understand your point about open carry prompting questions which allow you to make points which promote lawful carrying of a firearm for defense. I also understand that seeing a known "good guy" carrying may ease concerns about what type of people carry, at least to those who know you. You should know, however, that for every person who asks you about your armed condition, there are likely dozens that are just scared by it. Those who ask are probably easy to convince and probably somewhat pro-gun to begin with. I don't think you will win over any anti's.

The most important reason to carry concealed is the primary purpose for carry in the first place - defense. One big advantage you have over the bad guy is surprise. They don't know you're packing. I believe open carry in a real confrontation with a bad guy will just make you target number one.

Just my opinion

Mikey
 
I used to agree 100% with Mikey, but nowadays I learn towards the politically charged option of open carry. If you want to surprise someone, wear another gun conealed!
(tounge firmly in cheek).

Provided you know what you are doing, (ie- losing all tactical advantage of surprise.. potentially making yourself a target), you might just get something started. Like someone said, if EVERYONE carried openly, things would be differently. Somebody has to be first. If I ever get out to AZ, you and I can go to lunch carrying openly, within Legal limits, any time.

The question is "Are you willing to make yourself a target or weaken your ability to defend yourself for political reasons?"

If I were teaching a CCW class or talking to my wife, I would not advocate open carry for political reasons... I don't care that much about you and trust that you won't sue me ;) (there's that T.I.C. again...).



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-Essayons
 
I have to agree that open carry makes you a target. My father in law was chief of security for a grocery store chain. While he wore normal street clothes he did openly carry his badge and gun. One day a true professional robber walked in, got a cart and started shopping. As soon as he came near my father-in-law, he blind-sided him and knocked him cold. The robber then calmly took care of bussiness. The lesson here is if you're going to carry open, then you better grow eyes in the back of your head.
 
All true statements. The one *real* advantage to open carry...it's an advertisement for RKBA!!...gets people thinking and, hopefully, asking questions.

Having spent one *glorious* year in AZ, if you can stay in Condition Orange, I say go for it. If your charitable but cautious...and sneaky, like Rob...carry a backup piece!.
Rich
 
Ah, I've got a good story for this.

Last October Kevin McClung of Mad Dog knives threw a party near Prescott, AZ. Weekend bash, lots of shooting, much fun with high-end cutlery, quite a blast and guaranteed Sheeple-free.

So I put a lot of work into a NICE homemade leather open-carry holster. I still have it...black leather, silver accents, designed to hold my J-frame .38 in "typical FBI forward cant" and my Freedom Arms .22Mag minirevolver in "crossdraw" fashion. Came out REALLY nice.

So in California I store the guns unloaded in my locked tank bag, pack up the bike and head out.

Two miles past the CA/AZ border I stop at this desolate exit and ponder. And ponder. Strap up or not? Ponder some more. And finally compared my actual risk of needing it versus the risk of freaking somebody out on the "main traveller's freeway" I was on and at stops along the way, and reluctantly left 'em stashed.

Wore for the party of course, but...naaa. Even in AZ the odds of "causing freakout" without knowing more of the local culture seemed...just not worth it.

Certainly a strange place to think about it, sitting in the middle of the desert.

Jim March
 
Hi John!

When I'm wearing my Ruger Security Six it has always been open carry. Still getting my CCW. It has generated some conversation, but I never had the impression I changed anyone's mind. It has also led to some of the most ignorant questions I have ever heard, such as 'why would you need all of those extra bullets?'.

I agree with Mikey. In some cases, such as northern AZ, it is actually fun to carry openly, since the RKBA is so strong up there. However, in metro Phoenix I think it tends to make a lot of folks nervous - especially in retail establishments. Your point is well taken regarding conversation. I just think you can have nearly as many such conversations without creating the potential intimidation in the first place.

And, I am sensitive to the target / surprise factor. If, God forbid, I'm in a public place that is hit by one of these murderous BG's, I want the BG to see me blended in with everyone else ... until it is too late for him to respond to the counter moves of me and my fellow, honest concealed-carry neighbors.

Obviously, it is a personal choice, and I respect it either way, as long as the open carry isn't accompanied with inappropriate bravado. You're clearly not that kind of fellow. Take care.
 
Here is a stat for you: %50 of cars on the road at any given time in Phoenix legally have a gun in them. Gee, and I don't see any "old west" shootouts like HCI would have us to believe...?


Living in Phoenix for 10 years (and eager to get back!) I open carried a lot, even before we had CCW there.

In the metro city: prepare for an occasional tongue lashing (bad comment)! Open carry within the HIGHLY populated areas will definitly test your mettle. I mean, at least half of people will not even be phased, but it's those few arrogant loudmouth SOB's from Kalifornia that move there and can't handle it. You will get comments or gasps of terror (seriously!) from people once in a great while, (usually womyn).
Don't get me wrong, most people will not say a thing, but every once in a while you will meet someone new to the area and they will freak out. Pooh on them.

Then, when you are out of the dense city, it is absolutely no big deal at all. I don't mean "in the country", I just mean away from the dense city parts.

I still carry openly just because then I can carry a bigger gun! Ha! Usually a cocked and locked stainless Colt Gov't model. Ah, that gets them excited. Outside of the metro area, no one could care less. In the city, you will get a few people's hearts beating and some wide eyed initial stares...but they need to get used to it, IMO.

It is funny how dense people are and that if they SEE something, they freak out. I imagine that these people must have NO CLUE just how many people are carrying concealed weapons in Arizona. But, they don't freak out about the ones they don't see, they freak out about the one on your belt. People are funny.

I carried in a shoulder rig for years over my t-shirt or whatever I was wearing, and the fact that I was physically fit led most to believe I was a LEO. But, some people got freaked out by the "tactical" look of the shoulder rig.
When you carry crossdraw or underarm, even though I like it, people see it immediatly and even seem to think you are trying to intimidate them by flaunting it. For these reasons I usually carry on my hip.
Overall, I _prefer_ to carry crossdraw or shoulder rig where I can keep an eye on it. But, because people get a little freaked out about this I carry on the side/hip belt.
Some people never even notice it on my belt (even my huge silver Gov't model). People also seem to be used to seeing LEO's with it on their belt, so they are soothed by prior programming.



I usually rest my elbow on it when I am in a line at a store or something. Lines do make me nervous when I am carrying because people are too close. I often find myself turning at a slight cant in line so that the person behind me cannot reach my gun. Overall, it certainly makes you keep on your toes! No such thing as "condition white" when you are openly carrying!


Then there are the people that not only don't mind your gun, but like it and like the fact that you are carrying it. I have met some real babes while openly packing a gun. Not only did they not mind, but they liked it. Old timers are especially cool about people carrying guns. There are a lot of older folk on Az and you can get into some great conversations with fascinating people just because of your sidearm.

You have to be thick skinned though. Years ago when I started carrying I got nervous every time I walked into a store. Now I am a bit older in my mid-twenties, and I just don't give a **** anymore what other people think. The ones that get scared are the ignorant ones. Let's be real, the fact is, bad guys don't carry guns on their belt (just like they don't get guns through legal means).


I am ADAMANT about portraying myself as a very clean, educated, resposible, cool tempered, mature person when I carry. You are a walking billboard for gun owners. You have to remember that every person you meet is now judging all gun owners on every word you say and action you take and how you look.
I try to be an example of the "armed society is a polite society" and I am very cordial, mellow and mature when I carry openly.
It is like the people that stick the "Jesus fish" or stickers on their car and then drive like a bat out of Hades. Once you stick a label on yourself, whether you want to or not, you have to remember that you represent everyone of that ilk and people are watching you scrupulously in judgment of the entire group.


Arizona is a wonderful place and I think that as long as people keep seeing responsible people still carrying guns openly, that they will remain used to it. The people that have lived there all their lives don't mind at all. It's the overflow people from SoCal that move there and want to make it more like their home State. (grumble)

It is mine humble opinion that I am doing a good deed for the gun community by carrying openly when I am clean, and cordial. People need to get used to seeing this kind of thing so that they stop relating guns to "red-neck", foul-mouthed, beer guzzling smelly people. This is a fallacy that all (or hardly any) gun owners are like this and I like to destroy that image and present a new one. The fact is, most gun people are very nice and normal people. I take pride in exemplifying this to the public, and I honestly think it does more good for the gun-owning public than sending $25 to the NRA to do it for me.
 
Thad -

Good points all. I carry open, for the same reasons: it gets people thinking, and you can strike up really good conversations.

Colorado Springs is an open-friendly town, FTMP. There's the occasional anti-gun business (like Denny's), but I avoid them. They have the right to say "no guns on my property," and I have the right to spend my money elsewhere.

The grocery store I patronize has a *lot* of pro-gun employees. They can't carry at work, but they've all asked me intelligent questions about my guns, and expressed the wish that more customers would carry, since it would scare the goblins away.

I've never had anyone demand that I "put that thing away before someone gets hurt," but the rentacops at the local mall tend to follow me *very* closely :). I'm not worried about a goblin bracing me... the guns I carry have blue frames and black rubber grips, and I wear all black all the time. Even when I'm carrying open, my guns are nearly invisible... Which brings up another issue.

I'm not the suit-and-tie type atall. Black t-shirt, black jeans, black leather jacket and Docs are the order of the day. Add to that my shaved head, goatee, and heavy build, and you get a fairly intimidating persona. People tend to get the hell out of my way even when I'm not carrying.

On rare occasions, I'll get the deer-in-the-
headlights look, like "Please don't hurt me, Mr. Bad Guy!" When I see that look, I quietly explain that if I was a goblin, I'd be more likely to carry an auto in my pocket instead of a revolver on my hip. Then I show my Firearms Coalition card and my wallet-sized NRA cert, and ask when was the last time they heard of a 'banger actually learning how to be safe and shoot straight. That approach has never failed to get a relieved smile. Some of the relief may come from the fact that I'm well-spoken and intelligent, despite my thuggish appearance.

Sorry I can't do more to promote the well-dressed yupster image in relation to firearms ;).

------------------
"An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil
is not overcome by fleeing from it." -- Col. Jeff Cooper
 
Question for the Open CArry guys:

1. Do you know how the law treats out of staters in regards to open carry? If I visit, can I unpack after I leave the airport and strap on a gnu, regardless of LEO/CCW creds ??


2. Does carrying openly affect your choice of gun in either of two ways:

a.- You are more likely to choose a gun with a manula safety or magazine disconnnect, in case you get into a wrestling match for it or someone yanks it outta your holster

b.- You are more likely to choose a gun that appears to fit your wardrobe/personality better. (ie- you carry a Glock concealed, but carry Mother Of Pearl Handled Stanless Colt 1911 with Level 4 Engraving and Gold Inlay open)


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-Essayons
 
Thaddeus,

Man, did you ever just pull my chain.

In PA, there was a beautiful valley, called Poe Valley (as in Edgar Allen Poe). It
was remote, but easily accessed by car. All visitors marveled at its pristine beauty.
And it was free. Campers enjoyed piped-in water yet the camping places were
private. The park was quiet.

So, could they leave well enough alone? Ooohhh nnnooooo. The “powers”
opened it up so more people could enjoy it. Established “approved” camping
places belly-to-back so you could meet new people and enjoy “communal”
camping. Now it’s civilized and has all the “pristine beauty” of a Wal-Mart
parking lot. Grrrrrrr. (Subject continued on the “rant” channel...)

Here at Canyon Lake, TX, there were five or six parks, right on the lake, with
picnic tables, piped-in water, etc. And people enjoyed it. So the “powers” did
exactly as above - put in so many expensive “improvements” that it now costs
money just to ENTER the park! And to enforce all the new “requirements” they
had to hire more people (enforcers) which drives the price up even more. Grrrrrrr.
(Subject continued on the “rant” channel...)

I came to Texas because of what I perceived (rightly or wrongly) to be the Texas
culture: guns are just tools; talk quieter, talk less, say more; say what you mean
and mean what you say; your rights extend only to the tip of my nose; stand by
your friends and neighbors; etc. etc..

Now I find half the people here are from Detroit! Okay, okay, not just Detroit, but
from all over the North. And did they come here to enjoy Texas? Ooohhh,
nnnooooo. They’ve come like 20th century carpetbaggers to “civilize” Texas:
create the “individual” in their own image; outshout you by screaming their views
about everything and preventing anyone else the right to even answer; enforcing
their values in schools and blaming the parents for non-compliance with their
openly Socialist or Fascist values; create the proper “everyone for themselves” and
make the government take control of attitudes, policies, our entire lives; etc.
Grrrrrrr. (Subject continued on the “rant” channel...)

And this is typical throughout much of the United States. We have too few
Cornered Rats! Too many come to America to enjoy the blessings of liberty and
freedom. But do they make the slightest attempt to increase or even preserve the
very Rights and Freedoms which brought them here? Ooohhh, nnnooooo. They
turn right around and try to re-create the very type of tyranny from which they so
recently fled! They follow the government’s every wish and desire to increase its
power over American citizens. If their accursed system of government controls
was so wonderful, why in the devil did they flee such a “people’s paradise”?
Grrrrrrr. (Subject continued on the “rant” channel...)

“Open Carry v. Closed Carry” should NOT even be a legal question! It should be
strictly a personal choice. It is written, “... shall not be infringed”! Dammit! It’s
time we take back what we have let slip through our fingers. Is it a question
whether you can carry, carry openly, or carry concealed? I say, “NO!”
Emphatically and decisively I say, “Enough!” The government sheeples have gone
too far. The government provokes the problem of violence with their policies of
punishing the kind and just citizens and coddling the unkind and unjust citizens,
then try to make us “subjects” by taking more and more of our Rights away from
us to protect us from the very problem they foist upon us!

Rob, you were right! I was wrong. It is time for them to leave us the Hell
alone.
 
Rob -

1. Do you know how the law treats out of staters in regards to open carry?

In Colorado Springs, open carry is legal as long as you're not "displaying it in a manner calculated to cause alarm." Your state of residence is irrelevant. Of course, some sheeple can't deal with the sight of a gun in its holster, but that's their problem.

If I visit, can I unpack after I leave the airport and strap on a gnu, regardless of LEO/CCW creds ??

Buddy, if you can get a gnu through an airport luggage carousel, I don't think anyone would give you grief ;).

Seriously, you could technically put on your gun the moment you pick it up with the rest of your luggage. Prolly not a good idea, though, what with the terrorist boogeyman lurking in the sheeple's minds.

a.- You are more likely to choose a gun with a manula safety or magazine disconnnect, in case you get into a wrestling match for it or someone yanks it outta your holster

Like I sez, I'm not worried about that, although I probably should be. Mag disconnects would only be really effective if you carry in Condition 4, and manual safeties aren't likely to phase the goblin. Open carry, AFAIC, required heightened situational awareness.

b.- You are more likely to choose a gun that appears to fit your wardrobe/personality better.

Well, yeah, that too.


------------------
"An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil
is not overcome by fleeing from it." -- Col. Jeff Cooper

[This message has been edited by Coinneach (edited March 18, 1999).]

[This message has been edited by Coinneach (edited March 18, 1999).]
 
Gentlemen!

You have given me a veritable banquet of information to digest! And I thank you.

Rob, if ever you are in the Phoenix valley and survive the snowbirds, feel free to contact me, I would enjoy sharing your company over lunch.



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John/az

"Just because something is popular, does not make it right."
 
I think open carry is a good idea. With that comes the responsibility of hightened situational awareness, of course.

I think the benefits of an openly armed populace would outwiegh the downsides. It would take effort on our parts to make it happen, but we need to dispell the misconceptions the non gun types have of us. They just might find out we are intelligent, polite regular people and not criminals or militia wackos. Maybe, just maybe, we would make it socially acceptable to own and carry weapons again. That in turn might reduce crime, make our society more civil and little more bearable. I'm allowed to dream aren't I?

If I were to carry openly, I think I would opt for the same basic choices I carry now. Kahr K9 in the summer w/shorts and I could tuck my shirts in again. Cooler weather I would go with a G-35, vice my concealed G-23. And for lookin' snazzy, my Springfield Armory stainless steel "Loaded" 1911A1, in a sharkskin belt & holster.

Yeah, that would be cool.



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Dan

Check me out at:
www.mindspring.com/~susdan/interest.htm
www.mindspring.com/~susdan/GlocksnGoodies.htm
 
"Coinineach" -

Heh heh, I never said I was a "yuppy"...just clean, mature, cordial and mild mannered.
I actually have a good set of sideburns and the meanest looking goatee on the block. I do have short hair (my wife draws the line at the shaved head, it doesn't look that great on me, even though I would like it for functional purposes).
I have been wearing Dr. Martin boots for about ten years (because they are good footwear!) and I currently have, hmmm....about 8 pair or so (lost count).
I usually wear cargo pants that if they were green they would be called "BDU's", but since they are tan they are currently very fashionable. I won't go into my tattoos and piercings, but generally they are hidden from the public so they aren't an issue. At 6'3" 230 pounds people tend to step aside as well no matter what I am wearing :) Depending on how you look at it, I am either very fashionable wearing "Docs" and "Cargo Pants", or I am very militaristic, wearing "Combat Boots" and "BDU's". I don't care, I am comfy.
Either way, I still try to keep clean, talk pleasantly, and still dispell the image of the filthy, unmannered, bullying, wife-beating, loud, stinky person that gun owners are often portrayed as.
Sounds like we are actually a lot alike. In fact, you and I could probably have some great times over a Guiness or two.

I don't stereotype people by how they DRESS but how they act and present themselves. Never said I was a yuppy ;)

Dennis -

I knew a female who ranted on and on about how "great England is" and that we should have their gun laws and health care system. She cheered when "her side won by a landslide" when Clinton was first elected. Finally I told her: if it is so great in England, why the hell did you move HERE?! (her family was from England).
GO HOME!

I can't see why people like that want to move out of their accursed land and then just corrupt another one. Can't they see that maybe...just MAYBE, the people that built the wonderful State they are moving to did so on their values and just MAYBE that value system works really well? If it doens't work well, then why are they coming here and fleeing what they have created? UG!

Rob-

I am currently a disgruntled citizen of Californica and the minute I hit Arizona turf on my monthly retreats there, I strap on ole 'Betsy'. Never had a problem.

All I do when I am carrying openly is carry a bigger friggin gun. :) I like big guns.
I must admit to having a decade of very hardcore martial arts training including a lot of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu (only mention that because of the grappling issue) and have I been a bouncer for several of the last years. Not many people could get my gun away. On top of that, I am quite handy with a knife (to say the least), and I carry a knife as well, usually concealed.
If someone grabs for my gun, not only are they going to have a heck of a time getting it away, but they are going to get filleted if they persist.
Other than that...I just carry a BIG gun cuz I LIKE it :)


thaddeus
 
I carry 24/7 (sorry for the banger slang). In state or out, legal or not. I never fly for that very reason. I carry concealed, an wasn't thinking when I went to Arizonia to visit the big ditch and my wifes aunt several years back.
That was the only time I have accidently Profiled my Pistol. I was in a "Stop and Rob" outside of Flagstaff and I saw a LEO walk in and look at me oddly.
I paid for my gas and soda, and turned to leave. The Officer walked up to me and ask. "Is that a handgun under your shirt?"
I said, "Yes sir, it is." ready to ID myself as an out of state LEO and take what ever was coming next. But not making any fast moves.
The Officer ended the conversation as fast as he had started it, saying. "Well tuck your damn shirt in! You can't carry concealed in this state!"
I appologized, He stood and watched as I tucked my shirt in, then told me to drive careful and went about his Duties.
Yup LEOs are real worried about honest Citizens with weapons.
 
I carry concealed and I have told no one and I have never accidentally profiled my handgun. I only carry open when in grizzly bear management areas.

I live in Wyoming and it is very common to see open carry during hunting season or in mountains with populations of bears. However, even out here if you waltz into a retail establishment packing a gun you will raise some eyebrows. I don’t know how to say this without being offensive, but in Wyoming folks who carry open in “town” are considered a bit goofy.
 
Here in NH, where we have a gun friendly attitude, for now, at least, we have both open and concealed with a permit. Most LEO's and everybody else prefers concealed as the flatlanders from gun hostile neighboring states get all excited. In New Mexico, however, it is against the law to carry concealed. Their feeling seems to be, if you are carrying openly, you have nothing to hide. (Consequently, NM residents cannot get a concealed carry permit in NH, because we only issue to out of staters that have them from their own state.)
 
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