Proposed ATF Trust "Responsible Person" Form on .gov website

Skans said:
Machineguntony said:
statistically, it is only a matter of time before a silencer is used in a crime.
Click to expand...
Hmm, perhaps, but do you really think someone who has been fingerprinted, photographed and on record with ATF would really use one in a crime? Why? It would be much easier and safer to make an illegal one if someone intends to use it in a crime.
Click to expand...
Skans, you're only thinking about one kind of crime: The pre-meditated type. Lots of crimes aren't pre-meditated and instead they're crimes where someone doesn't think something through ahead of time. Sometimes someone who has gone through the process of acquiring a legal gun (a process that -- in some states -- can be more complicated than getting a silencer) still uses it in an illegal manner. Now imagine if they already had a silencer on that gun: It's completely possible with the large increase in silencer sales nationwide.

Besides, you're assuming that all criminals are calculating and meticulous. But how many dumb criminals commit crimes driving their own registered cars? Heck, I've even seen stories of criminals leaving their wallets at the scene of the crime or wearing a jersey with their own name on the back. So it's not at all beyond the realm of possibility that someone might commit a crime with their own registered silencer.
 
With the increased sales of silencers and NFA items, statistically, it is only a matter of time before a silencer is used in a crime. The CLEO sign offs will plummet to near zero or be near impossible to obtain.
Click to expand...
I'm not sure what you're basing that on. Statistically, criminal usage of NFA firearms is nonexistent. The few "crimes" I've heard of were statutory paperwork violations, not crimes of violence.
 
Tom Servo said:
I'm not sure what you're basing that on.
Click to expand...
He's simply basing that on probability: If silencers continue to become more and more common, it's more and more likely that some moron will eventually use one in a crime. Now, whether CLEO sign-offs will plummet after that is a different question.
 
But how many dumb criminals commit crimes driving their own registered cars?
Click to expand...

I understand what you're saying - it's just a numbers game. But, how many dumb criminals go through the trouble of obtaining a trust, learning how to use the trust, submit forms, fingerprints and photo to ATF, pay $200, and wait 7 months etc. just to get a legal silencer? It's a heck of a process. For the cost of a certain greasy car part they could make their own illegally.

Crimes of passion, etc....perhaps, I won't debate you on that - could happen.

What the NFA community should really do is attack this in another way. Debate the anti-gun lobby by telling them they are getting what they always wanted with the proliferation of NFA silencers: Owning NFA items is defacto federal firearms owner registration.
 
While it is true that a person who went through the process would most likely not use an NFA item in a premeditated crime, it is very possible that someone could have a silencer stolen and then used in a crime or someone could take the item, without permission and use it in a crime, like how Adam Lanza took his mom's guns. Imagine if Adam Lanza's mom had some silencers in her collection.

Or it could be that someone, who legally owns an NFA item, just loses their temper or cool and uses the NFA item in a crime.

Just statistically speaking, when something is more common, there is the greater possibility that any event can occur. Mathematicians called it Poisson distribution.
 
O
r it could be that someone, who legally owns an NFA item, just loses their temper or cool and uses the NFA item in a crime.
Click to expand...

Even if someone was predisposed to violence, I still don't see them using a machine gun or legal silencer for this. These things are too valuable not to keep locked up in a safe. Also, silencers don't fit inside glove boxes so they aren't real practical for road ragers either.
 
...if silencers continue to become more and more common, it's more and more likely that some moron will eventually use one in a crime.
Click to expand...

fwiw, in Norway, to the best of my knowledge there have been no convictions for crimes which involved silencers, despite these items being very popular and completely unregulated for many years now. There is some suspicion, especially among oldtimers, that poachers use them - but generally that's not too feasible either, as almost any round that is capable of bringing down a deer without a lot of fuss will create a very audible sonic crack even with the best silencers available.
 
If you don't think bad things can happen, read this article. It appears 29 guns and 16 suppressors, some probably NFA machine guns, stolen from a dealer's trailer, along with 20,000 rounds of ammo. Just happened this Saturday.

Hopefully, they find those guns soon.

http://www.indystar.com/story/news/...s-ammo-stolen-far-westside-gun-shop/16038675/

This list of stolen items, below (see link below):

3 M16 type fully automatic rifles

2 full auto AK47s

A Beretta Auto Sear machine gun

A Century Arms machine gun

5 HK MP5 type sub-machine guns

A Century Arms Tantal machine gun

A full auto Thompson 1928A1 sub-machine gun

A full auto UZI sub-machine gun

An Ohio Ordinance 249 SAW belt fed full auto machine gun

Pistols include:

2 Ruger semi autos

A Beretta 92FS semi auto

2 Sig Sauer semi autos

2 Kimber semi auto handguns

An HK 45T semi auto pistol

There were two short barrelled rifles — one a Mosin 91/30 and the other a Vector Arms PTR-91P, two Remington 870 shotguns and one Savage Arms 720 shotgun.

Police say there were also 16 suppressors in the trailer along with approximately 20,000 rounds of mixed ammunition, a pallet jack, and $2,500 worth of miscellaneous magazines.

http://wishtv.com/2014/09/22/trailer-full-of-guns-ammo-stolen-from-indy-business/
 
Last edited:
Sure, guns and gear get stolen all the time. That much is certain. However, does that make the original owners responsible for crimes committed with the stolen items? Also, presumably things have been getting stolen ever since NFA took effect - how often have machine guns, SBRs, or silencers been used in crimes during all that time?

Most criminals still need to conceal their weapons. That means handguns for the most part, and attaching a can to one just makes it harder to conceal.

I'll reiterate my statement - despite large numbers of silencers for both long and short arms being sold freely here for years, nothing bad has happened.

When something becomes common, it becomes normal and accepted. If nobody had cars and someone today came upon the idea of putting a barely trained individual behind the controls of a 1,5 ton metal vehicle carrying a large tank of flammable liquid, traveling at 50mph inches from other such vehicles as well as unprotected pedestrians, people would recoil in horror and the concept would be banned in an instant. However, since cars have become common, they are accepted despite a heavy toll on society every year.

It helps of course that cars are genuinely useful, just like silencers.
 
stolen from a dealer's trailer
Click to expand...

Still, no one lawfully possessing a registered machine gun or silencer using it for a crime. How is stealing a silencer less criminal than simply making one?
 
My guess is those that did a Trust and got their stamp you'll be all set. They cashed your check, signed the form and issued a stamp. Deal is done.

For those with pending forms... They might kick them back. Will be interesting to see.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top