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Proper Timing in Uberti 1851 Navy London with Kirst Gated Conversion Cylinder
- Thread starter Head Tomcat
- Start date
Head Tomcat
New member
Kirst Gated Cylinder Assembly...Something Interesting I Found
Guys,
I went back to Taylor’s today and bought two new Uberti Colt 1851 Navy bolts to have (hopefully) enough in stock to mess up a bit and still have one to fall back on.
I now have a new factory hand and bolt in the pistol and tried it several times to see how a “factory new” setting works…and I found something interesting.
The front/rear movement in the Kirst gated converter has always bothered me as both the cylinder and converter plate seemed to rattle around a bit too much for my liking. As said in a previous post, I am seeing .020” cylinder endshake and this just cannot lead to a smooth and predictable action. I also do not see how the hand (normal or extended) can properly work when it is having to deal with so much front/rear movement.
So, I pointed the pistol toward the floor and the Kirst assembly slid forward as expected….and the action cycled normally. Then, when I pointed the pistol toward the ceiling and the assembly slid to the rear…the hand could not function at all! The hammer had moved so little to the rear before the hand hit a hard stop on the ratchet that the bolt was still locked up. When I pointed the pistol back toward the floor and the Kirst assembly slid forward….the action cycled normally.
It seems the front/rear movement of the Kirst gated converter assembly is so much that depending how high or low the pistol is pointed determines whether the action will cycle at all.
Now I am obviously no expert on this kind of pistol but when the movement of a part is so great that it literally determines whether the action will work or not, it seems the initial focus should be on the moving part. More specifically, how to fix it in the optimum location so as to allow proper action timing to be done with the hand and bolt having a constant reference (the fixed Kirst assembly) to work on.
Would screwing the Kirst converter plate against the recoil shield (like the Howell gated converter) and then installing a carefully measured arbor collar to stabilize the cylinder be a way to go? This would firmly fix the gated converter plate into position and the arbor collar would limit forward movement of the cylinder to a minimal amount. This should then reduce the endshake more than enough to allow a properly set up hand and bolt to work as desired.
Jeez…a lot going on but I am pretty darn sure it can be done correctly and yield a setup that then allows proper action tuning.
Head Tomcat with a bright???? idea
Guys,
I went back to Taylor’s today and bought two new Uberti Colt 1851 Navy bolts to have (hopefully) enough in stock to mess up a bit and still have one to fall back on.
I now have a new factory hand and bolt in the pistol and tried it several times to see how a “factory new” setting works…and I found something interesting.
The front/rear movement in the Kirst gated converter has always bothered me as both the cylinder and converter plate seemed to rattle around a bit too much for my liking. As said in a previous post, I am seeing .020” cylinder endshake and this just cannot lead to a smooth and predictable action. I also do not see how the hand (normal or extended) can properly work when it is having to deal with so much front/rear movement.
So, I pointed the pistol toward the floor and the Kirst assembly slid forward as expected….and the action cycled normally. Then, when I pointed the pistol toward the ceiling and the assembly slid to the rear…the hand could not function at all! The hammer had moved so little to the rear before the hand hit a hard stop on the ratchet that the bolt was still locked up. When I pointed the pistol back toward the floor and the Kirst assembly slid forward….the action cycled normally.
It seems the front/rear movement of the Kirst gated converter assembly is so much that depending how high or low the pistol is pointed determines whether the action will cycle at all.
Now I am obviously no expert on this kind of pistol but when the movement of a part is so great that it literally determines whether the action will work or not, it seems the initial focus should be on the moving part. More specifically, how to fix it in the optimum location so as to allow proper action timing to be done with the hand and bolt having a constant reference (the fixed Kirst assembly) to work on.
Would screwing the Kirst converter plate against the recoil shield (like the Howell gated converter) and then installing a carefully measured arbor collar to stabilize the cylinder be a way to go? This would firmly fix the gated converter plate into position and the arbor collar would limit forward movement of the cylinder to a minimal amount. This should then reduce the endshake more than enough to allow a properly set up hand and bolt to work as desired.
Jeez…a lot going on but I am pretty darn sure it can be done correctly and yield a setup that then allows proper action tuning.
Head Tomcat with a bright???? idea
45 Dragoon
New member
Well HT, that's why they pay me the big bucks!! Lol!! To answer your questions would take more time than I have to sit here and peck out on a keyboard . . .
That said, you don't need to attach the conversion ring to the recoil shield, ( part of the " beauty" of the Kirst conversions). The "clearance" is gigantic and yes, it's hard to do precision work with those kind of numbers.
You have my number, call me and I can explain/ answer questions (I can work and talk ( to a certain degree)) much easier, with more detail than on a keyboard.
Mike
That said, you don't need to attach the conversion ring to the recoil shield, ( part of the " beauty" of the Kirst conversions). The "clearance" is gigantic and yes, it's hard to do precision work with those kind of numbers.
You have my number, call me and I can explain/ answer questions (I can work and talk ( to a certain degree)) much easier, with more detail than on a keyboard.
Mike
45 Dragoon
New member
I'll just add, my own Dragoons and my one Army with Kirst conversions (dedicated full time cartridge guns) have .0015" - .002" barrel/cyl. clearances, get fanned / "thumb slipped" or both - every day. They are "test beds" for what I do . . . The hammers stop against the frame which means ( unlike most every other install!!) there's no transfer of energy to the conversion ring . . . just the firing pin and the frame for the stop!! They are magic!!
It will be worth it to set them up correctly!!!
Mike
It will be worth it to set them up correctly!!!
Mike
Head Tomcat
New member
Time to Look for a Better Solution
Mike,
I am giving you a call as it is clear my current skills are not up to properly installing and then timing the action on my Navy with the Kirst gated converter. When the action will work/not work depending on which elevation the pistol is pointed...well, that is a new one for me!!!
Head Tom who is kicked on this one
PS: I think I will restart this effort with a Uberti Colt 1860 Army in the next several months and in the meantime...get this Colt Navy done right...by you!
Mike,
I am giving you a call as it is clear my current skills are not up to properly installing and then timing the action on my Navy with the Kirst gated converter. When the action will work/not work depending on which elevation the pistol is pointed...well, that is a new one for me!!!
Head Tom who is kicked on this one
PS: I think I will restart this effort with a Uberti Colt 1860 Army in the next several months and in the meantime...get this Colt Navy done right...by you!
Head Tomcat
New member
Great Call With Mike!
Guys,
After the never-ending frustration of getting my Uberti Colt 1851 Navy to properly time with the Kirst gated converter...I have realized it is currently beyond me. So - I had a wonderful 20-minute discussion with Mike about it...and the end result is I shipped it out yesterday for him to work his magic.
What led to this was the .020" cylinder endshake of the Kirst assembly and the pistol operating only if it was pointed level or down. Pointing it up even a moderate amount would cause the assembly to slide down to the recoil shield and the hand would now be too long and lock up...before the bolt could drop. I have never worked on a pistol that functioned depending on which way it was pointed - and this was beyond my skill level to fix.
So...off to Goon it went and I asked him to make it perfect as a dedicated black powder cartridge conversion.
Also, I signed into Instagram and went to Goon's page only to be amazed at what all he has worked on. Just looking at the pictures and reading the comments was an education in itself!
Now, to figure out what "perfect" timing is for a Uberti 1858 Remington (as there is no approach milled into the cylinder) since that is something I more than likely can deal with.
Goon.....you really impressed me with your knowledge!
Head Tomcat (who knows when to call it quits and get an expert on the case)
Guys,
After the never-ending frustration of getting my Uberti Colt 1851 Navy to properly time with the Kirst gated converter...I have realized it is currently beyond me. So - I had a wonderful 20-minute discussion with Mike about it...and the end result is I shipped it out yesterday for him to work his magic.
What led to this was the .020" cylinder endshake of the Kirst assembly and the pistol operating only if it was pointed level or down. Pointing it up even a moderate amount would cause the assembly to slide down to the recoil shield and the hand would now be too long and lock up...before the bolt could drop. I have never worked on a pistol that functioned depending on which way it was pointed - and this was beyond my skill level to fix.
So...off to Goon it went and I asked him to make it perfect as a dedicated black powder cartridge conversion.
Also, I signed into Instagram and went to Goon's page only to be amazed at what all he has worked on. Just looking at the pictures and reading the comments was an education in itself!
Now, to figure out what "perfect" timing is for a Uberti 1858 Remington (as there is no approach milled into the cylinder) since that is something I more than likely can deal with.
Goon.....you really impressed me with your knowledge!
Head Tomcat (who knows when to call it quits and get an expert on the case)
Now, to figure out what "perfect" timing is for a Uberti 1858 Remington (as there is no approach milled into the cylinder) since that is something I more than likely can deal with.
Absolutely positively perfect would have the hammer going to full cock and the bolt dropping into the notch at exactly the same time which is doable. Once parts start to wear it won't take much for the bolt to start dropping on the edge of the notch and peening it. IMO it's best to time it to drop at least one full bolt width before the notch.
45 Dragoon
New member
Wow HT!! What a great write up!! And, thanks so much!! I'll tame that animal!!! Lol
Hawg has it right, bolt drop about a width before the notch. Definitely not on the notch (it'll peen the material).
Mike
Hawg has it right, bolt drop about a width before the notch. Definitely not on the notch (it'll peen the material).
Mike