proper handgun grip?

I haven't said anything else on here since the OP but I have been following it. Its interesting to see what everyone has to say. One question I do have is, what is the teacup grip?
 
Something like this......

sm_Teacup.jpg


You basically support the gun in the off hand, like a cup in a saucer.
 
The so called Tea Cup hold might be a carry over from the artillery hold for rifles.
Except that the rifle has the very important third support at the shoulder.
But the Tea Cup can be useful for slow precision shooting with low recoiling handguns.
So, don't discount it all together, as it does have its uses.
As does most every technique, depending on circumstances.
 
Raimius, "Showmebob, I'm wondering what leads you to the conclusion that quick, accurate follow-up shots are not that important in defensive shootings. Is that based on speculation or scientific study?"
Snyper pretty much answered this with his reply "Quick shots can be important, but the tiny fractions of a second difference caused by various grip styles is negligible"

I was taught to shoot and assess not shoot, shoot and then assess. Also, I have 3 carry guns that really don't work with thumbs forward grip. (2 semi's and a revolver) I have nothing against thumbs forward it's just not what I think works best for me using multiple types of firearms. Thumbs crossed is the best universal grip for me. I have tea cupped, thumbs forward, thumbs down and crossed, thumbs crossed behind the hammer, strong hand, weak hand and likely a few I've forgotten and still use them all for practice.

As a traditional bowhunter for 18 years I realized quickly that deer and elk don't allow you time to take the perfect stance so I practiced for every conceivable situation. Shooting in a defensive situation should be the same. I believe one should learn as many ways to hold a firearm as you can and then you will have options if needed.
 
If one's interest is self defense, why not learn to be both?
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Why do you think everyone has to do things your way to be both?

There is no "one size fits all" when it comes to shooting efficiently.

The "latest styles" are not always better than what was used before.

They are merely different.

Their popularity comes from "monkey see, monkey do" in many cases, when the older ways have always worked for most.

http://www.handgunsmag.com/tactics-training/the-combat-grip/
 
Snyper said:
Why do you think everyone has to do things your way to be both?

There is no "one size fits all" when it comes to shooting efficiently.

The "latest styles" are not always better than what was used before.

They are merely different.

Their popularity comes from "monkey see, monkey do" in many cases, when the older ways have always worked for most.

http://www.handgunsmag.com/tactics-t...e-combat-grip/
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Did I say that there's only one way to do anything?

But certain techniques have proven themselves more efficient, and certain techniques have been shown to be less efficient. In this case, for quick, accurate shooting either the "thumbs forward" or the "thumb-over-thumb" have been demonstrated to be effective -- when properly used.

The "teacup" is demonstrably less efficient. You'll notice that the article you linked to didn't mention the teacup grip as a viable option.
 
Their popularity comes from "monkey see, monkey do" in many cases, when the older ways have always worked for most.
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Well, youre always going to have the monkeys who are adventurous, who like to push their barriers, and expand their horizons, by learning new things and staying on top of their game or profession, whatever the case may be.

Then you have those who are not quite as adventurous, and are comfortable staying where they are. By doing so, those monkeys often tend to stagnate, and deceive themselves as to their skills.

The older ways work until something is found to work better. Does that mean they still dont work? Not at all. But if you cant keep up with others around you, who have embraced a new way, then you'd probably do yourself better, by trying to find out why they are and you arent.

The only way to know is to try and prove the new way wrong. So far, I really havent been able to do that, with solid (as opposed to gimmicky) methods, and Ive always moved on for the most part.

Im not saying Ive totally given up on the old ways, just that I take what part of them that works in certain situations, and embrace them, when needed. I simply use what works best, when needed.

I think if youve been around long enough, and have used them all at some point, you know that there really is no "one" way to do things, and that more often than not, you morph through many of them, even unknowingly creating combinations of them as you go, especially if your shooting is reactive and realistic as opposed to static.


Geeze, you guys.
There's been no mention of the weak hand grip of the strong hand wrist method.
Now, really.
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I think that was well out of fashion back in the DOS command prompt age of computers, wasnt it? :)
 
Did I say that there's only one way to do anything?
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You always imply it.

But certain techniques have proven themselves more efficient, and certain techniques have been shown to be less efficient. In this case, for quick, accurate shooting either the "thumbs forward" or the "thumb-over-thumb" have been demonstrated to be effective -- when properly used.
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That's all well and good IF it works for you.

It doesn't mean other techniques are less effective, even if they aren't the current fad

The "teacup" is demonstrably less efficient. You'll notice that the article you linked to didn't mention the teacup grip as a viable option.
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There were many things it didn't mention, so that is irrelevant
It did mention the thumbs forward wasn't "better".
 
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Well, youre always going to have the monkeys who are adventurous, who like to push their barriers, and expand their horizons, by learning new things and staying on top of their game or profession, whatever the case may be.
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Again, you're assuming because not everyone agrees with what you think is a "proper grip", they don't know about it or havent tried it at all.

Following the latest craze isn't always "staying on top"

It can also be called following the herd

I think if youve been around long enough, and have used them all at some point, you know that there really is no "one" way to do things, and that more often than not, you morph through many of them, even unknowingly creating combinations of them as you go, especially if your shooting is reactive and realistic as opposed to static.
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That's been my whole point all along
 
Again, you're assuming because not everyone agrees with what you think is a "proper grip", they don't know about it or havent tried it at all.
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Im not assuming anything, I was just stating a fact.

Following the latest craze isn't always "staying on top"

It can also be called following the herd
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Who said anything about following. If you dont try whats new, and prove or disprove it, how will you ever get anywhere? You'll just stagnate and remain where you are.

I prefer to try and stay ahead of, or at least in the front the herd, so I keep trying everything and anything I can, that might offer improvement, as it presents itself.

That's been my whole point all along
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Mine too. So whats the problem?
 
Showmebob. You mentioned learning multiple ways gripping of a handgun so you have options. I kinda feel like if you have options you have to consider then which means taking time to think. Now it seems to me if someone were attacking you and you take time to think your going to end up dead. Like chappy Sinclair told Doug Masters in Iron Eagle (I want you to go over this plan till you have it automatic). Wouldn't it be better to practice one draw and one grip until you don't even have to think about it you just react?
 
Wouldn't it be better to practice one draw and one grip until you don't even have to think about it you just react?
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Yes...and no. self-defensive training should include one and two hand drawing, shooting, reloading, malfunction clearing, moving, using cover, firing from retention, various round counts, balancing of speed and precision, small target, large target, near and far, multiple targets, differing stances....

You really don't want to stand at a line and just draw and use one grip and think you're now good to go.

There are grips which provide better recoil control and if your 0.1 of a second quicker shot happens to end the fight (think hit on CNS or opposing weapon) well that would be pretty important. I think it's silly to think otherwise. In defensive shooting, speed and hits on target are paramount.

I use thumbs forward for semi-auto two hand training, thumb flagged for the one hand work because that is best for ME. I didn't start out that way 40 years ago. Way back then we stood sideways, stuck one hand in our pocket and extended the pistol in the other hand -tinkered with many types of grips, until I found the current setup. (Tinkered is not 10 rounds, but 100's)

Can't really tell you what will work for YOU, but when you find the type of grip YOU will use, then work on dry fire drills until the grip is built automatically.

There's been no mention of the weak hand grip of the strong hand wrist method.
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g.willikers/AK103K – Ya’ll have the time line a little confused. The Tea Cup grip was going out of style about the time IBM PC’s hit the shelves with their DOS 1.0 operating systems in the early 80’s. Grabbing the wrist went out of vogue back when we were using slide rules, around the mid 70’s. The OP might pick up the hint about these two grips styles…..
 
Once you start to move, and deal with targets on the flanks as you go, youre likely going to find that you wont be able to use your normal "static" grip at all.

Assuming a right handed shooter, targets to the right, are basically going to be addressed one handed, as its very difficult to maintain a two handed grip.

Targets to the left, and I think you will see yourself sliding into a form of Weaver as you go.

Theres a lot to be said for being well versed in many things, flexible and adaptable.
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I agree with this. I practice a lot of one handed shooting, both right and left (weak side for me). I also practice coming from a one-handed low ready position to on-target... For me, I find the thumbs down (left thumb on top of right thumb) to be the fastest grip to get into and on target... and it is a grip I can use on all of my pistols and revolvers.

I tried the thumbs forward for a year, and in certain instances with certain guns I noticed a slight improvement in the accuracy of a long string of rapid fire. But under stress I was reverting back to 20 years of thumbs down habit. And as I mentioned, I found it a little slower to get into this grip. So I gave it up. Plus, the whole exercise of trying something new set my skills back... It took some practice to recover back to where I started from... lesson learned: don't screw around with changing something that basic.

For carefully aimed precision target work, I use a variation on the teacup grip. I use it even with heavy recoiling guns like my super red hawk. Both elbows bent, left hand fully carrying the weight of the gun, and the right hand gripping just tight enough. I let the recoil bring the gun straight up, and very little recoil makes back to my shoulders. Observers sometimes advise me to grip the gun tighter... " wow that gun is really pushing you around, you should lock your arms down..." except I can make a 3 inch group at 50 yards, and shoot 70 rounds of hot 300 grain handloads in an afternoon without a problem ... people who "lock down on the gun" can't often do that. Teacup for a combat gun? would not work for me.

For someone starting out today, I would advise them to learn the thumbs forward grip as the default style... If they can't make it work, then try something else. But for people who have been shooting for 20, 30, or 40 years, sticking with what works is a very valid decision.

Jim
 
The problem with a lot of conversations like this is that some percentage of the participants are really only looking to validate and defend their preferences and prejudices.

Unfortunately, some things objectively work better than others. It's usually the newer techniques which supplant or replace the older ones, not the other way around.

Stubborn adherence to something that "worked just fine for ..." <insert old-gun-hero or WW2 reference here> would mean we still fought with prop driven fighter planes and tiger tanks. That kind of nonsense just doesn't hold weight.

It's important to know when you simply "like" something better, as opposed to it being demonstrably, objectively better.

And no ... it's not "just a matter of opinion".
 
Coyotewsm Quote:[Showmebob. You mentioned learning multiple ways gripping of a handgun so you have options. I kinda feel like if you have options you have to consider then which means taking time to think. Now it seems to me if someone were attacking you and you take time to think your going to end up dead. Like chappy Sinclair told Doug Masters in Iron Eagle (I want you to go over this plan till you have it automatic). Wouldn't it be better to practice one draw and one grip until you don't even have to think about it you just react?]

Coyotewsm, I would agree with your statement if all attacks took place with the person standing, the BG guy no closer than 7 feet or so, with no obstructions around and fully able to use their strong side draw. I would not want to stop and think about it. In that situation it would be an automatic response to use what you practice the most.

What about when you are sitting in your car? Maybe your sidearm is not on your side. Maybe it's in the console, door pocket or elsewhere. Which side of the car is the attack coming from? Which hand are you forced to shoot from?

What if you are injured in one hand or arm? You are on the ground? I think there are lots of possibilities one should consider.

Since this has not been mentioned (it's very much worth a try)!

http://www.sabretactical.com/CAR.pdf and a few photo's

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q...k+grip&qpvt=center+axis+relock+grip&FORM=IGRE

Training is fun and I like variety, knowledge is power!
 
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