Progressive Loader Best Value Purchase For Competition Shooting
- Thread starter Dead-Nuts-Zero
- Start date
The only time I have ever had a problem with priming on a progressive press like the Dillon 650 was when I was using military brass with crimped primer pockets. That problem is non existent in the Dillon 1050 since one of the stages will swage (Remove the crimp) from the primer pocket automatically.
Regarding you tumbling question just tumbling the brass once before you run it through the press is sufficient.
Scotty
This only applies to the Dillon 550 and 650 presses the 1050 does it on the down stroke.
"Primers are seated when the handle is at the top of its stroke when the leverage is much less. You must push forward (up) on the handle to seat a primer. "
Regarding you tumbling question just tumbling the brass once before you run it through the press is sufficient.
Scotty
This only applies to the Dillon 550 and 650 presses the 1050 does it on the down stroke.
"Primers are seated when the handle is at the top of its stroke when the leverage is much less. You must push forward (up) on the handle to seat a primer. "
My bad. Ryucasta, you are correct.
I've seen a couple of 1050's, but have never used one. They seem like the class of the field. I would imagine seating primers on the downstroke would be a totally different feel. With as many stations as they have, it seems like you would run out of operations to do while loading before you ran out of stations to do them with. Primer pocket swaging, powder check, trim, etc.
Just out of curiosity, how difficult is it to change over to a different caliber?
One reason I went a 550 is the ease and relatively low cost of changeovers.
I shoot primarily .40, so this is what my machine is set up for most of the time. A few hundred rounds of 9mm, .45, .38, etc. will usually last me a while so I change over and run off a batch as necessary.
I've seen a couple of 1050's, but have never used one. They seem like the class of the field. I would imagine seating primers on the downstroke would be a totally different feel. With as many stations as they have, it seems like you would run out of operations to do while loading before you ran out of stations to do them with. Primer pocket swaging, powder check, trim, etc.
Just out of curiosity, how difficult is it to change over to a different caliber?
One reason I went a 550 is the ease and relatively low cost of changeovers.
I shoot primarily .40, so this is what my machine is set up for most of the time. A few hundred rounds of 9mm, .45, .38, etc. will usually last me a while so I change over and run off a batch as necessary.
Mr. Chitlin
Inactive
I'll jump in here with my experiences on progressive presses. I started shooting IPSC in 1988, and shortly after, I purchased a Lee Pro 1000. I retired that press about 3 years ago when I upgraded to a Dillon 650 . Personally, I like auto indexing, I feel that it is an added safety measure. To me, manual indexing is always the place that a double charge can happen. All it takes is one minor brain fart to double charge a case. Now on to my experiences with the 2 presses.
The Lee loaded many 10's of thousands of rounds of 38, 9, 40 and 45 ammo. The press did good, but there were a few quirks that I never got worked completely out. First, it seems that out of every 100 rounds, I always had 2 or 3 that the primers went in either upside down or sideways. The little plastic primer feed chute really never fed the primers real smoothly, either. I was always tapping on either the feed chute or the primer holder to keep them feeding. I had the case feeder tubes and they did good for the most part. All in all, it was a good press for the ~$100 or so that I paid for it, but that is what I had, a hundred dollar machine. What few times I had a problem, a part wore out, or I broke something, I always had to pay for it. No freebies. Seems like I did good to load 200 or so rounds per hour. Another thing that hindered me on the Lee machine was that I liked to use the Lee Factory Crimp die after I loaded, just to make sure the round was as close to in spec as I could get it. Since the Pro 1000 only had 3 places for dies, I had to do this as a seperate step. Now, the Pro 1000 does have 4 hole turrets, I think.
About 3 or 4 years ago, I decided to upgrade to the Dillon 650. That was my choice since I wanted auto indexing. I went whole hog with the case feeder, powder check and all. I have it set up to load 9mm, 40, 45, 223 and 308. Any other calibers I shoot, I load on a Lee Turret Press. I don't shoot enough of them to justify progressive loading, as they are mostly hunting loads. I can change calibers on the 650 in about 15 minutes, I really haven't timed myself, but it doesn't take long. Caliber conversions are a little pricey, but it is good quality. If you really get into it, there are several parts that can be moved between calibers to help save a little money. Since I was already loading these calibers on the Pro 1000, I still use my Lee Dies with the Dillon press. As for loading rates, a few weeks ago, I loaded 1100 rounds of 40S&W in 90 minutes, including about a 10 minute break at about half way to reload primer tubes and get a drink. This past weekend, I loaded 1800 rounds of 9mm in less than 3 hours, including breaks and primer tube relaoding. 223 and 308 I can load at ~400 to 500 per hour. This was just working at a steady pace, not trying to set any records. I inspect every round after I finish, and so far, in the last 3 years, I haven't found one upside down primer. Now this isn't to say that there isn't a kink every once in a while, there is. The Dillon isn't foolproof, it is just light years ahead of the Lee 1000. I have broke 2 parts, it was 100% my fault both times, but they were insulted that I offered to pay.
All in all, the Lee is a good machine, it will get your ammo loaded, but won't be fast. I can't bi*ch too much about it, becaues I used it for about 13 or 14 years and loaded literally truck loads of ammo on it. You might have some quirks you have to work around. If you can afford the more expensive Dillon, by all means go for it. If you get the 650, you will need the case feeder. If you don't get the case feeder, go with the 550. Another Dillon to look at if the 550 and 650 is a little out of your range, but you still want a Dillon, is the Square Deal B. It uses Dillons own proprietary dies, and loads handgun ammo only, but is still a progressive with auto index. I haven't used one personally, but several of the shooters in my club do use them and really like them.
Good luck on your choice and safe reloading.
The Lee loaded many 10's of thousands of rounds of 38, 9, 40 and 45 ammo. The press did good, but there were a few quirks that I never got worked completely out. First, it seems that out of every 100 rounds, I always had 2 or 3 that the primers went in either upside down or sideways. The little plastic primer feed chute really never fed the primers real smoothly, either. I was always tapping on either the feed chute or the primer holder to keep them feeding. I had the case feeder tubes and they did good for the most part. All in all, it was a good press for the ~$100 or so that I paid for it, but that is what I had, a hundred dollar machine. What few times I had a problem, a part wore out, or I broke something, I always had to pay for it. No freebies. Seems like I did good to load 200 or so rounds per hour. Another thing that hindered me on the Lee machine was that I liked to use the Lee Factory Crimp die after I loaded, just to make sure the round was as close to in spec as I could get it. Since the Pro 1000 only had 3 places for dies, I had to do this as a seperate step. Now, the Pro 1000 does have 4 hole turrets, I think.
About 3 or 4 years ago, I decided to upgrade to the Dillon 650. That was my choice since I wanted auto indexing. I went whole hog with the case feeder, powder check and all. I have it set up to load 9mm, 40, 45, 223 and 308. Any other calibers I shoot, I load on a Lee Turret Press. I don't shoot enough of them to justify progressive loading, as they are mostly hunting loads. I can change calibers on the 650 in about 15 minutes, I really haven't timed myself, but it doesn't take long. Caliber conversions are a little pricey, but it is good quality. If you really get into it, there are several parts that can be moved between calibers to help save a little money. Since I was already loading these calibers on the Pro 1000, I still use my Lee Dies with the Dillon press. As for loading rates, a few weeks ago, I loaded 1100 rounds of 40S&W in 90 minutes, including about a 10 minute break at about half way to reload primer tubes and get a drink. This past weekend, I loaded 1800 rounds of 9mm in less than 3 hours, including breaks and primer tube relaoding. 223 and 308 I can load at ~400 to 500 per hour. This was just working at a steady pace, not trying to set any records. I inspect every round after I finish, and so far, in the last 3 years, I haven't found one upside down primer. Now this isn't to say that there isn't a kink every once in a while, there is. The Dillon isn't foolproof, it is just light years ahead of the Lee 1000. I have broke 2 parts, it was 100% my fault both times, but they were insulted that I offered to pay.
All in all, the Lee is a good machine, it will get your ammo loaded, but won't be fast. I can't bi*ch too much about it, becaues I used it for about 13 or 14 years and loaded literally truck loads of ammo on it. You might have some quirks you have to work around. If you can afford the more expensive Dillon, by all means go for it. If you get the 650, you will need the case feeder. If you don't get the case feeder, go with the 550. Another Dillon to look at if the 550 and 650 is a little out of your range, but you still want a Dillon, is the Square Deal B. It uses Dillons own proprietary dies, and loads handgun ammo only, but is still a progressive with auto index. I haven't used one personally, but several of the shooters in my club do use them and really like them.
Good luck on your choice and safe reloading.
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Which progressive.
Again I went through your process looking at progressives recently to get another one to accompany my Ammomaster.
Dillon was not an option for me because of problems with them in the past, not their products I may add but the attitude of their sales people.
I am sure that Dillon progressives are excellent as their is so much testament about it but I bought the Hornady LNL progressive.
It works just fine no problems, excellent ammunition, and easy to use. I'm sure its just as good as the Dillons but probably no better, I think the proper comparison is with the Dillon 650, but where it is better is on value for money.
Build quality and robustness is as good as the Dillons if not better.
Dillons success is part an excellent product, part its marketing and part its market place longevity with good working designs. None of the other big names have left their products in the market place for so long. I would have bought another Ammonmaster progressive if I could, the one I have is 12 years old, loaded 10s of thousands of pistol and rifle ammunition rounds and is still going strong. I've never needed to contact customer support.
It wasn't available for me so I went with the Hornady does the same job as the Dillon for less.
That has to be the clincher.
That in my eyes makes it a "better" product.
Again I went through your process looking at progressives recently to get another one to accompany my Ammomaster.
Dillon was not an option for me because of problems with them in the past, not their products I may add but the attitude of their sales people.
I am sure that Dillon progressives are excellent as their is so much testament about it but I bought the Hornady LNL progressive.
It works just fine no problems, excellent ammunition, and easy to use. I'm sure its just as good as the Dillons but probably no better, I think the proper comparison is with the Dillon 650, but where it is better is on value for money.
Build quality and robustness is as good as the Dillons if not better.
Dillons success is part an excellent product, part its marketing and part its market place longevity with good working designs. None of the other big names have left their products in the market place for so long. I would have bought another Ammonmaster progressive if I could, the one I have is 12 years old, loaded 10s of thousands of pistol and rifle ammunition rounds and is still going strong. I've never needed to contact customer support.
It wasn't available for me so I went with the Hornady does the same job as the Dillon for less.
That has to be the clincher.
That in my eyes makes it a "better" product.
Progressives
For more years than I can now remember I collected reloading presses. Not single station machines but Potters, Hollywood turrets, Jordans and progressives. Though not always successful I tried seriously using them all.
Probably had three dozen progressives. Never bought a Dillon 1050 or 650 but I had all the rest including a RL 1000. Think that I had serial number 5 Hornady. They gave me that machine.
Eventually someone offered to buy all my machines at a price I could not turn down so I sold them.
Personally I think that the finest machine ever made was the Star. Work of art. WAY to overbuilt but, well, they would work without problems for 50+ years.
Of the current crew, at least the ones you mentioned, I'd pick the RCBS Pro 2000. I've got two. I've also got two Piggyback III's. The first two RCBS Piggyback really suc@ed but not the III and IV. In my opinion the RCBS strip primer system is the best primer system ever BY FAR.
Dillon are certainly ok machines but I think the current RCBS machines are better. Lee's and Hornady are interesting but, well, I don't miss mine.
For more years than I can now remember I collected reloading presses. Not single station machines but Potters, Hollywood turrets, Jordans and progressives. Though not always successful I tried seriously using them all.
Probably had three dozen progressives. Never bought a Dillon 1050 or 650 but I had all the rest including a RL 1000. Think that I had serial number 5 Hornady. They gave me that machine.
Eventually someone offered to buy all my machines at a price I could not turn down so I sold them.
Personally I think that the finest machine ever made was the Star. Work of art. WAY to overbuilt but, well, they would work without problems for 50+ years.
Of the current crew, at least the ones you mentioned, I'd pick the RCBS Pro 2000. I've got two. I've also got two Piggyback III's. The first two RCBS Piggyback really suc@ed but not the III and IV. In my opinion the RCBS strip primer system is the best primer system ever BY FAR.
Dillon are certainly ok machines but I think the current RCBS machines are better. Lee's and Hornady are interesting but, well, I don't miss mine.
Dillon Experience
Have used other machines from time to time, but have owned the Dillons since 1988. I started with a 550, because of my friends' recommendations. They felt, to a person, that the volume of reloading I wanted to do, this was the machine to buy. Had great luck with it. I used it for over 5 or 6 years. The only issues I had were priming (my inattention to proper adjustment). They overhauled it for me every year or so at no charge.
After one of my sons started shooting (along with my wife and me), the need for speed escalated and I opted for a 650. The casefeeder and another station to add the powder charge check was enough to warrant the extra dollars.
After the other son started shooting and the rest of us started shooting more USPSA and 3 Gun, I switched to a 1050. Cranking the rounds out now, right? Caliber change was more of a chore than the 650 and since we all shot 3 or 4 pistol calibers and 1 rifle caliber......another 1050. Spitting out ammo left and right. The quantity needs were being met. Oops, we started shooting 308. Sooo, we bought another 550 with a friend to load that caliber.
In summary, I can't speak for the other loaders except what my Dad and friends have told me about their experience (sometimes good, sometimes bad). ALL loaders have parts that wear, get screwed up or get lost. Dillon, in 17 years, has never charged me for parts, my screwup or theirs. They have walked me through, over the phone, a number of times on things that the instructions didn't fully explain.
My Dad still uses his single stage. He thinks that all the therapeutic value of reloading is lost once you get over 100 rounds per hour (or so he says). My therapy comes from blasting away, not having a Zen experience on the reloader.
My vote is Dillon, if you can.
Have used other machines from time to time, but have owned the Dillons since 1988. I started with a 550, because of my friends' recommendations. They felt, to a person, that the volume of reloading I wanted to do, this was the machine to buy. Had great luck with it. I used it for over 5 or 6 years. The only issues I had were priming (my inattention to proper adjustment). They overhauled it for me every year or so at no charge.
After one of my sons started shooting (along with my wife and me), the need for speed escalated and I opted for a 650. The casefeeder and another station to add the powder charge check was enough to warrant the extra dollars.
After the other son started shooting and the rest of us started shooting more USPSA and 3 Gun, I switched to a 1050. Cranking the rounds out now, right? Caliber change was more of a chore than the 650 and since we all shot 3 or 4 pistol calibers and 1 rifle caliber......another 1050. Spitting out ammo left and right. The quantity needs were being met. Oops, we started shooting 308. Sooo, we bought another 550 with a friend to load that caliber.
In summary, I can't speak for the other loaders except what my Dad and friends have told me about their experience (sometimes good, sometimes bad). ALL loaders have parts that wear, get screwed up or get lost. Dillon, in 17 years, has never charged me for parts, my screwup or theirs. They have walked me through, over the phone, a number of times on things that the instructions didn't fully explain.
My Dad still uses his single stage. He thinks that all the therapeutic value of reloading is lost once you get over 100 rounds per hour (or so he says). My therapy comes from blasting away, not having a Zen experience on the reloader.
My vote is Dillon, if you can.
my 2 cents
They are all good, some with better percs. If you were to look in my basement you would find, Lyman, Lee's, Mec's, RCBS, Hornady and a Dillon. I have two old, 20+ Lee progressives that I leave setup in 357 & 9mm. I would hate to guess how many rounds have been accross either. Never had to replace a part on either one. If you were in a race, I believe a Lee would outdistance my Dillon 550 especially if you had someone filling primer trays, casing feeder and powder hoper. I believe the Dillon 650 is faster but have no personel experience. I like the die change out speed on the Dillon as I use it for 40, 45ACP and 45LC however for about the same price as the equipment needed to change cals you could buy a Lee and just leave it set up. By the way I haven't mentioned my Hornady yet. It too is a fine piece of progressive machinery built like a tank as is the Dillon.
I guess if I had to worry about down time I would say Dillon has the best and fastest Warrenty Service and it is NO BS.
Last off I do not worry about speed, and I think too many people worry about speed or reaching the rate the manufacture prints on a piece of paper. I find it much more enjoyable and safer to just plug along looking in the cases after they come through the powder station, and generally checking "things" as I go. When I went from single stage to progressive for hand gun cals. 20 something years ago, not too long into it I had a squib load in 9mm. Luckily I caught it when it happened and didn't follow it with another round. That taught me a lesson to slow down and do a visual on all powder charges on all presses that don't have powder checkers.
Good luck in your quest for a loader. Don't worry, no matter what you get someone will tell you you should have got something else. lol
They are all good, some with better percs. If you were to look in my basement you would find, Lyman, Lee's, Mec's, RCBS, Hornady and a Dillon. I have two old, 20+ Lee progressives that I leave setup in 357 & 9mm. I would hate to guess how many rounds have been accross either. Never had to replace a part on either one. If you were in a race, I believe a Lee would outdistance my Dillon 550 especially if you had someone filling primer trays, casing feeder and powder hoper. I believe the Dillon 650 is faster but have no personel experience. I like the die change out speed on the Dillon as I use it for 40, 45ACP and 45LC however for about the same price as the equipment needed to change cals you could buy a Lee and just leave it set up. By the way I haven't mentioned my Hornady yet. It too is a fine piece of progressive machinery built like a tank as is the Dillon.
I guess if I had to worry about down time I would say Dillon has the best and fastest Warrenty Service and it is NO BS.
Last off I do not worry about speed, and I think too many people worry about speed or reaching the rate the manufacture prints on a piece of paper. I find it much more enjoyable and safer to just plug along looking in the cases after they come through the powder station, and generally checking "things" as I go. When I went from single stage to progressive for hand gun cals. 20 something years ago, not too long into it I had a squib load in 9mm. Luckily I caught it when it happened and didn't follow it with another round. That taught me a lesson to slow down and do a visual on all powder charges on all presses that don't have powder checkers.
Good luck in your quest for a loader. Don't worry, no matter what you get someone will tell you you should have got something else. lol