Problems getting case right for easy chambering

C

Crapshoooter2

New member
I have been reloading for about a year…have used Firing Line as a resource on reloading. Thanks for all your assistance.

So during the past year I have loaded several hundred if not over a 1000 rounds of 223 for auto and bolt action rifles and about 500 rounds of 6.5 Creedmoor for a bolt action. Of course there was a learning curve but really no major problem. All the rounds load into my rifles with no problems. Also they would work easily in my friends rifles.

So as few weeks ago I decided to start reloading 204 ammo. I was not expecting any problems. I load some Hornady 32 grain Vmax and some Sierra 39 grain.

All cases were once fired Hornady cases tumbled … trimmed to ….. 1.840
The 32 gr Hornady were set to the load data to a C.O.L. of . …… 2.245
The 39 Gr Sierra Blitzking was set to the load data a t0 a C.O.L. …….2.250
32 gr factory Hornady ammo C.O.L .…. 2.254

Each case was sized using a Lee 204 full sizing die. Set at ¼ turn more down as detail in the Lee instructions.
All case where put in silver lynn go no go gage and were in between the minimum and max range.

Prior to reloading I had only shot Hornady 204 factory ammo in in my custom bolt 204 and my son’s Savage Model 12 204 with no problems with chambering.

So off to the range with both rifles, both 32 gr and 39 gr reloads. I chambered and fired a few of both reloads thru the Savage 204 with no chambering problem , they slipped right in with no excess force require.
I then try to chamber the 32 gr reloads into the custom 204 and they would not chamber. I did not want to use excess force. I them tried the 39 gr and the same problem. I then randomly selected some out of the 25 reloads I had each of 32 gr and 39 gr to find that none would chamber. I did fine one 32 gr that went in but need more pressure than was normally need. I did not fire and I had difficulty getting the shell out of the rifle.

I then took the remainder back and put each into a Lynn small rifle ammo checker. I found that most would fit into the ammo checker or just a fraction about the level but if you slightly touch the end on the case they would be level with the line. They did not fall in like the factory ammo.

I then checked the OJIVE on my reloads with a Hornday Compensator and they were all the same depending on the bullet
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My assumption then was that either the sizing die was not set correctly or the shoulder push back was incorrect.

I still had some brass from the same batch which had not been resized so I rotated the sizing die down a bit and try to get a cased that would fit the custom 204 easily. I have adjust the die up and down and have veried the C.O.L Since the manufactured fits easily at a C.O.L. of 2.254 and using the same bullet I was using 2.450… I did not thing it was a length problem. I could not get an easy chambered case in the custom rifle. It is if the very bottom of the case or the case it self is not get sized correctly. But they all fit the Savage easily

There for I am thinking it is a a die/sizing problem. Your comments, suggestions would be appreciated

Crapshoootee2
 
It sounds to me like your custom chambers rifle could be the problem. You’d need to do a chamber cast and see what the results are.
 
While I concur with the above, its a bit more complex and what to do about it.

Tackling this on a step by step level (not being mean) you missed some aspects (and I got back into reloading maybe 8 years ago after a long hiatus and did not know either)

1. The old put the size die in and then 1/4 more turn is effective, but it does push the shoulder WAY back. Good news is, it would fit in any gun (other than your custom). The less good news is its hard on brass.

2. The best way to deal with brass sizing is to measure the fired case (per a given rifle) on the shoulder, then set the die progressively lower to get a minimum .003 less reading. I go with .005 as I have variations but the real pro's work at .002 or .003 (I am not one of them)
example: I measure a fired case on the shoulder (Hornady makes a device for this) and its 2.345. I then put the die down in the AREA of the shell holder, then size the case, measure again. I may get no change. I keep turning the die down a bit at a time until I see movement and then a small amount until I see 2.340.
I use a digital calipers (pretty low cost these days) and I zero out the gadget you pout in the jaws.

Your brass lasts a lot longer, fits better and may get you better accuracy (lots of variables of course)

If you have more than one gun with common chambers, generally y9u can come up with a measurement that is short enough in one to be good and still shoot in the other fine if a tad loose.

In your case, the custom chamber is so short that a full on crush back (I think it goes upwards of .015 push back on the shoulder doing it the 1/4 method) is still not enough.

Factory ammo can fit. It sounds like the Savage is going to its chamber size then trying to get that case shrunk back to the Custom chamber rifle is not working.

If you shoot factory in that Custom Rifle and keep it separate, you may be fine. Of course keeping separate can be tough. The custom must be really tight chamber on the margin of spec.

Chamber castings is a pain and you still have the issue. The custom rifle mfg has some protection as factory does fit.

Local gun smith can correct as well. shipping cost and who pays for what weight into it.

A while back at the gun range a guy brought a case over to me (I look really whiz bang professional with my built up bull target rifle setup though I am not). He was having a problem with the shoulder and clear marking impressed in it.

Upshot was, yep, a custom rifle just back form the source (forget who or what). Send it back (or have it fixed)

But its a custom rifle, it should be right.

Nope, those can be the worst. I don't know why, but its more common for a hand built custom rig to have that than a main line mfg that has a quality control program in place.

Its not every custom mfg, but its more likely from one.
 
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It could be a tight chamber. But what I think is more likely is it's got a tight/short throat. Color your rounds with sharpie, and try to chamber them, twisting them with your fingers if you can. Color the base of the case, to well past the ogive. Where the sharpie gets rubbed off is where you're issue is.

I'm thinking the bullets are seated too long for the custom chamber, even though the oal is within specifications, they might be meeting the rifling to soon. Different bullets will have a different profile and may need to be set shorter to clear the rifling.

If you have the tools, measure the lands of your rifles. Where the ogive of the bullet is is what the chamber of the rifle cares about, it could care less where the tip of the bullet is(the mag sure does though)

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the ogive tool does not measure where the bullet contact the lands. It simply is a consistent point of reference that is generally more consistent than the bullet point. the point contacting the lands could be further forward or further back than the tool depending on the bullet profile.

I would recommend loading a dummy round load to your current COL. Then start pushing it back in 0.005 increments until it chambers. Once it chambers you will have a pretty good idea where it contacts your lands. Personally I would go back 0.020 from wherever it if starts chambering to get a safe jump, unless your into the whole jam thing for match accuracy.

I had an issue several months back with a 308 rifle where I resized a bunch of brass and it would not chamber.

I ended up getting a wilson headspace gauge. It allowed me to gauge and measure factory brass, fired brass, and my resized brass to adjust my dies properly. https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1016251573?pid=163290. Having a head pace gauge, IMHO is a must after making mistakes and needing one to solve my problems.



If your die wont size enough i have 2 solutions. 1st, buy a competition shell holders set. they have differing thicknesses to allow the die to come down farther. option 2 is to buy a spare shell holder and get some find grit sandpaper and sand the top to thin it out and let the die come down as far a needed.
 
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Shadow9mm said:
the ogive tool does not measure where the bullet contact the lands. It simply is a consistent point of reference that is generally more consistent than the bullet point. the point contacting the lands could be further forward or further back than the tool depending on the bullet profile.

I would recommend loading a dummy round load to your current COL. Then start pushing it back in 0.005 increments until it chambers. Once it chambers you will have a pretty good idea where it contacts your lands. Personally I would go back 0.020 from wherever it if starts chambering to get a safe jump, unless your into the whole jam thing for match accuracy.
Click to expand...
By itself, no. But you can use the Hornady modified case and accompanied tool to measure to the lands of the rifle, then use a comparator to measure the CBTO (cartridge base to ogive) of the loaded rounds (you have to use the same bullet in the modified case as the round you are measuring). You can then determine how much jam or jump they will have. Yes, it does not physically measure the spot that contacts the rifling, but it WILL tell you if you're jamming the bullet into the rifling.

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I think you are overthinking this, and at the same time, skipping a few key things.

You fired factory ammo in both rifles and it worked fine. Therefore the dimensions of factory ammo are correct for both rifles chambering easily.

Factory ammo is always loaded to dimensions slightly less than industry standard min spec for the case. This is so that ammo will chamber in min spec chamber rifles, and it allows for the range of tolerance expected.

When you have all the play out of the press linkage, and your sizer die is hard against the shell holder, that is the most (smallest) that you can size that case with your equipment.

The ammo passes the case checker, its within allowed tolerance range, it fits fine in the Savage but not your custom rifle. Correct??

I don't see a problem with your die or your gauges, I see a custom chamber that is likely a bit too "tight" in the case head area, since you think that's where its "sticking".

Since factory ammo chambers easily its not a matter of "too tight to work" its a matter of the size relationship between your sizer die and the custom chamber.

This appears to be a binary solution set. TO get reloads that fit in your custom rifle chamber easily, you either need a die that sizes all the case enough to fit, or you need to have your custom chamber "opened up" a tiny bit to work with what the existing sizing die produces.

Forget everything about measuring to a point on the ogive of the bullet, unless your bullets are touching the rifling, the distance off the rifling has NOTHING to do with being able to easily chamber a round.

Personally, I think I'd look for a competent smith, one who understands the tiny amount of change needed, and that a light polish might possibly do the trick.

Your die set up produces reloads that work in the factory chambered rifle. so there's technically nothing "wrong" with your die or its set up.

So you could have a custom die made to perfectly match your custom rifle chamber, OR you could have the custom rifle chamber polished to work with ammo made on standard spec tooling. From what you describe, I don't think that there is any adjustment you can do with what you have to cure the problem.

Sounds like you need a "small base" sizer die for your custom chamber rifle, and in .204, that would be a custom made die, which aren't cheap. Weigh your options and do a cost/benefit analysis, to see which option (if either) makes the most sense for you.

Good Luck!
 
nhyrum said:
By itself, no. But you can use the Hornady modified case and accompanied tool to measure to the lands of the rifle, then use a comparator to measure the CBTO (cartridge base to ogive) of the loaded rounds (you have to use the same bullet in the modified case as the round you are measuring). You can then determine how much jam or jump they will have. Yes, it does not physically measure the spot that contacts the rifling, but it WILL tell you if you're jamming the bullet into the rifling.

Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
except, that tool requires a modified case for the gauge. Hornady sells factory modified cases, however if its a tight chamber the factory modified case may not work. I believe they will make a custom one from your once fired brass, however I cannot imagine how long that would take right now.
 
Shadow9mm said:
except, that tool requires a modified case for the gauge. Hornady sells factory modified cases, however if its a tight chamber the factory modified case may not work. I believe they will make a custom one from your once fired brass, however I cannot imagine how long that would take right now.
Click to expand...
Sure, if in fact he has a tight chamber. Regardless, the op would still be able to use it in the other rifle. I'm just not convinced it's a tight chamber causing the issue. It could be, but I find it easier to start with all the simple things first, which is why I suggested to sharpie a round and see where it's contacting

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Methinks that custom chamber is set as close to SAAMI minimum as possible. Nothing wrong with that except the Savage rifle has a chamber with dimensions somewhere between the SAAMI max and min numbers. OK as far as that goes but cases sized for one gun won't fit in a different gun as the OP has found out.

What I suggest he try is the following using the rifle with the custom chamber.

This is how I set up my sizing die for bottleneck cartridges.

1. Take a once fired factory case from your rifle and blacken the neck and shoulders with a Magic Marker or Sharpee pen. Some people like to smoke the neck and shoulder, but I find the Magic Marker/Sharpee pen a bit better.

2. Carefully lubricate the case.

3. Loosen the lock ring on the sizing die and back off about two turns from when the die is set to touch the shell holder.

4. Size the case. Note where the marks are on the case and turn the die down about a half a turn and size again. Turn down some more, and resize again. What you are looking for is the marks on the blackening just touching the shoulder.

5. Clean the lube from the case and try it in the rifle. It may chamber just a bit on the snug side. If so, turn the die down ever so slightly, lube and size again. Wipe off the lube and try in the rifle. If it slides in as easily as a factory round, you should be good to go. If not, usually one more very slight adjustment should fix the problem.

6. Tighten the locking ring for the die and you're done. You have just set your sizing die up for a custom fit to your specific rifle, rather than a generic one size fits all guns.

That should fix the too tight problem. That brass will now work in the savage but may be sized too much for long case life. I have that same problem with a custom rifle chambered to the 7x57 cartridge. Brass for it is too small for use in two commercial rifle chambered to the round so I ordered just a full length sizing die to handle the tight chambered rifle.

Anyway, you might give that a try to see if it fixes the problem.
Paul B.
 
You could also see if a sized case with no bullet will chamber. If a sized case doesn't fit, then you'll need to figure out why

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Thanks guys

you given he enoguht to consider and try. How I will have a project for this winter so the custom gun will be ready for Praire Dog in S.D. in the Spring.

Thanks again I will keep posted as to the final out come.

Thanks
Crapshoooter2
 
Crapshooter2,

A couple of thoughts:

The way you listed your loading method steps I could not tell if you trimmed before or after you resized. Always trim after, because most of the neck growth occurs during resizing.

Were the once-fired cases all previously fired in the Savage? Sometimes cases fired in a loose chamber don't resize quite fully enough to fit in a tight chamber. This is usually a problem only for brass fired in a military full-auto weapon, but every once in a while, it can happen with regular guns too.


Two things to try:

Run the cases into the Lee die and count to five with the press ram all the way up. Lower the ram, turn the case 180° and run it back up into the die for another count of five. This can often take another couple of thousandths off the head-to-shoulder dimension and a bit less off the widths.

If that doesn't work, try Mr. Guffey's trick. Find some feeler gauges about the width of your case rims that will slip into the shell holder under the case. You should be able to slip up to 0.005" under it, at least. This will push the case that much further up into the die.
 
If that doesn't work, try Mr. Guffey's trick. Find some feeler gauges about the width of your case rims that will slip into the shell holder under the case. You should be able to slip up to 0.005" under it, at least. This will push the case that much further up into the die.
Click to expand...

If this works, just get yourself a set of Redding Competition Shell holders and use one of the five in the set to do the same thing without the feeler gages.
https://www.redding-reloading.com/online-catalog/35-competition-shellholder-sets
 
The once fired cases were fired orginally from both rifles. However about 90% there fired in the Savage rifle. Unfortunatedly I can not tell which were fired from which rifle. My bad.

All cases are trimmed to 1.840 AFTER sizing.
Thank You
 
That would indicate that the Savage fired cases are not getting sized back down to what the Custom Rifle needs.

Easy fix is to fire factory (or new brass?) in the Custom Rifle and keep the brass segregated.

Easiest in that regard is to use a different head stamp/mfg brass.
 
NoSecondBest,

The Redding Competition shell holders have decks that are thicker than the standard 1/8" in +0.002" steps to custom size brass for for chambers that are longer than minimum. The OP would need the opposite, a deck shorter than standard to let the brass get deeper into the die. AFAIK, those are not available, possibly due to strength issues with thinning the decks below the 1/8" level. So the feeler gauge is the only option I am familiar with to get the die further down on the case.
 
For a few years,I was loading for two 7mm Rem Mags. One a WinM-70 Laredo,the other a Husqvarna hunting rifle.
Using the belt for headspace showed stretch rings by the 4th loading.

The two rifles had shoulders at different depths. Ammo universal to both rifles just was not practical.

So I bought a few hundred nickel plated cases .plenty to feed the Husky hunting rifle for a long time.

And,as I load for more than one 30-06, if it has a Match BTHP bullet,its a load suitable for my Garand.
If it has a hunting bullet, such as a Ballistic Tip,its likely to be loaded with 4350 to a load not good for the Garand.

Yes,I label my boxes with load data, but the odd 30-06 load pulled from the pocket does not go in the Garand if it has a hunting bullet.

Just another layer of being careful.

If you build a rifle as a custom accuracy tight chambered gnat nutter...you might load optimum ammo for it and "Pretty good" universal ammo for the commercial rifles.

If the variation in rifles is headspace,rather than chamber diameter...You said one was a Savage? Maybe that could be adjusted.
 
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