Pro-RKBA liberals?

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Nightflurry

Inactive
Yes, I know it's my first post, and I'm not completly sure this is the right forum for this (if it's not then just move it) but I wanted to say a few things. I'll probably be hanged drawn and quartered for it, but here goes.

I'm what most people would call a liberal and (somewhat) left leaning. I'll spare you the laundry list of my political views since most are not relevant here. What is relevant is that I'm very pro RKBA. I've never really understood the broadbrush painting I see all over that all liberals must be anti-gun. Most of my friends are, and most enjoy shooting. I've never actually met a liberal who was strongly anti gun (Though I know they're out there). I meet a fair bit who are mildly so, and a lot that are neutral so just tow their party line.

You guys know that if you just toned down some of the rhetoric and tried education that you'd get a lot of converts right? Like I mentioned, most liberals I run into are neutral on the issue. They're not really anti-gun, they're just uninformed, and sadly, the only information they're getting is either "Guns are evil" or "Liberals are evil", neither of which paints a positive RKBA image in their minds. I've converted a few just by a trip to the range.

I have a little saying to the people that don't understand how I can have the leanings that I do, and I think a lot more people need to take this to heart. I say the left wants to protect all the ammendments except the second, and the right seems to want to diminish all but the second.. can't we just have the whole damn thing?

You won't see me or other pro 2nd ammendment liberals defending our politicans who don't get it, in fact, we're pretty pissed at them these days. Besides, banning guns is not at all a true liberal ideal, it's authoritarian.. which is pretty much the antithesis of anything liberal. So lay off on the real liberals out there, we get it ;) It's the fake liberals you need to watch out for, just like the fake conservatives that seem to be cropping up all over Washington these last years. Now if only we had a system that encouraged third parties.. the way it is now both are just getting too plain corrupt and idiotic.

The pro gun crowd, of which I am a part, could get a lot of support from liberals if they took a good sensible approach to it all, especially from places like the gay community. They get self defense issues pretty damn well if you ask me.

So there you have it, that's my 2 cents on the whole debate. Flame away if you must, but hopefully I'll be sticking around the forums. I'm here to talk about shooting, so don't take this the wrong way. I don't want a flamewar, just making my position and views very plain.

Happy shooting, all.
 
The shooting community - if there is any such thing - seems to have fragmented like the Balkans. In this era of specialization no one seems to consider any topic "in the round," so to speak. We should endeavor to avoid this insofar as we can, for our enemies will seek every opportunity to divide and conquer. I will endeavor to clean up my own act to the best of my ability, but since I have never been a shotgunner nor a target shooter, this will take some effort. I will push the motto "If he shoots, he's on our side."

- Jeff Cooper 1998
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My democratic friends think I'm republican, my republican friends think I'm a democrat. I took an online poll that said I was a libertarian, but they wouldn't have me either.

Perhaps we've learned it's in poor form to chase off the brethren.

We'll see. And welcome!
 
I may disagree with him on other issues,but heres the reply I recently received from my liberal Democrat member of Congress concerning gun issues.

Thank you for contacting my office regarding your concerns around Second Amendment issues. As you may or may not know, I am an ardent supporter of the right of Americans to own, possess, and use firearms in a responsible manner.

I, myself, am a gun owner and take pride in the fact I have taught my three sons the meaning and importance of safe and responsible gun use.

Recent actions taken by both Chambers of Congress have advanced the rights of United States citizens in many critical ways. In the House of Representatives, we added an amendment to the Appropriations Bill governing the District of Columbia which will block funds to be used for the enforcement of the "DC Gun Ban." I am also a co-sponsor of HR 1288 which will end the gun ban.

Recently, the Senate passed S.397 - the Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act. This bill will help shield gun manufacturers from civil liability lawsuits. This important legislation will be taken up in the House of Representatives following our August recess. I am a cosponsor of the House companion to S.397 and I very much look forward to its passage into law.

If you would like more information regarding Second Amendment issues in Congress, please feel free to contact my office at 202-225-4761 or email Brian Ross at brian.ross@mail.house.gov.

Sincerely,
John T. Salazar
Member of Congress
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Hubert Humphrey was a pro RKBA liberal.
I'm convinced the concept died with him.

Forgive me for being suspicious, but there's been a rash of supposed "liberal gun owners" of late.

Frankly, I'm not buying into it.

Too much liberal water under the bridge over the years. - It's a "fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me" kind of thing.

I've watched as 40 years of runaway "liberalism" in this country has destoryed just about everything I ever believed in.

If you really are Pro RKBA,,,then I'm sorry but - you're going to have to prove it by more than a "Rodney King" moment of "let's all get together".
Get your own house in order, then come to me with the news that you've tossed the likes of Feinstien, Boxer, Kerry, Kennedy, Clinton etc. out on their ear.

In the meantime, welcome to TFL.
 
My view of liberals is that they are guilty until proven innocent. Statistically most Muslims are not terrorists, but most terrorists are Muslims. Same logic. Not all liberals are anti-2nd amendment, but most anti-gun morons are liberals...or perceived liberals, anyway. I'll take a classic liberal anyday, heck back in the days the liberals took on the monarchy and fought for freedom. Now adays liberals just sit in the airport Hilton and talk about their feelings and how the world can be bettered by more useless dialogue.

Oops, another unintended rant...:D
 
JFK was a pro-gun liberal.

Our homegrown state Rep. Eric Croft D-Anchorage is a pro-gun liberal. So pro-gun that he crafted our VT style concealed carry law and stated that "you can't put a pre-condition on a Constitutional right" as part of his arguement for passage.
He's running for governor by the way, and I think we own him.;)
 
Nightflurry,

I'll make this simple and terse. Take it as rudeness if you choose.

The anti gunners for DECADES have been shoving gun control, taxes, prohibitions, bans, and confiscations on the American people based on lies.

The politicians know they are lies.
The Media know they are lies.
And I think YOU know they are lies.

Education? Facts are stubborn things but the willful refusal to see the truth by a liberal is even more stubborn. Reporters constantly do hit pieces about "semi-automatic assault weapons" and they show video of a cop shooting off a Class III full auto weapon. Over and over and over, for years and years. Those aren't "mistakes" of ignorance those are lies and fraud perpetrated against every citizen of the United States. Every deceitful story is challenged by freedom advocates who DO know the facts. We give them the benefit of the doubt, but they don't want to tell the truth when they have an agenda. The fact is The MSM has been in cahoots with lying power-mongers who mean to disarm Americans as they finally did to the "subjects" in Britain, and are still working on in Australia, and Canada.

Gun control has always been sold as a "crime issue" LIES.
politicians passed restrictive gun laws to control UNDESIRABLE PEOPLE:
Freed slaves, black people, immigrant foreigners. In today's egalitarian society, all citizens are considerered "undesirable people".

Gun control advocates try to fool us by saying they'd never come after OUR guns, on a regular basis they let the mask slip and they accidently tell the truth that ultimate confiscation of every last firearm is exactly what they mean to do, when they can do so. I could bury you with quotes by the usual suspects, and you know it. Gun locks, registration, licensing, training, banning of guns which are too large, too small, too tactical.... the harassment has been relentless for 40 years. The gun seizures in New Orleans are just the most recent indisputable evidence of their ultimate aims and their inevitable methods.

Gun control is sold by the lies that each individual is not responsible for his/her own safety, too incompetent, too stupid, and too potentially violent to be trusted with the freedom of owning and bearing firearms.

Gun control is sold by the lie that calling 911 will instantly teleport well-armed police officers who will get your butt out of trouble when a bad guy invades your home, holds a knife to your child's throat, or threatens to rape your wife. Not true, and not possible. When trouble happens, you are ALONE, and you had better have the equipment, training and mindset to deal with the event.

Gun controllers try to make out gun owners, and our organizations as criminal, uncouth, violent, and mentally deranged.

Among those who are completely indoctrinated by public education, and mass media, they are substantially successful in selling their characterization.

The style is disturbingly similar to the Nazi propaganda of the 30's.
I've smelled this same smell before.

That is hate speech, and that is just the ongoing declaration of a war WHICH THE GUN-BANNERS SEEM DETERMINED TO INSTIGATE.

We, like Jews, in 30's Germany, are portrayed as sub-human, vermin, and that all "right thinking civilized people" must disempower, marginalize, disarm us.
This is not simply a "political disagreement". The gun-banners ( who usually self identify as LIBERAL) HATE US. Hate gun owners not just for THINGS which we have, but the hate us for the fact that we do not trust their motives, and do not abjectly subjugate ourselves to their every dopey idea. We have ideas about freedom and self reliance and FOR THAT, THEY HATE US.

Tell me WHY these "liberal" politicians who you still otherwise identify with, deserve your trust on any matter? Why exactly do you think they are so desperate to disarm American citizens? You can't believe that any "gun-control" law prevents criminals and madmen from obtaining firearms. Not unless you are stupid, or insane, or liberal. Why do you think I should trust them? I never hurt anybody, I never threatened anybody. Every time I look at a big city Newspaper, or watch the broadcast TV news, there they are, the usual suspects, trying to brainwash the American public of how DANGEROUS I am, and trying to pass yet another law which gives them an excuse to bash down my door, stop me on the highway, and throw me in prison, or kill me.

Many reading this right now have lost friends, had to turn their backs on family, or even split up with spouses or long term lovers because the relentless propaganda has brainwashed their loved ones to believe that possession of a gun was a sign of mental disease, and criminal character disorder.

I will never again even DATE a woman who is not hard core pro freedom and self defense. My future friends will accept me, or they simply won't be my friends.

The gun-grabbing liberal politicians obviously do not care about women,
if they oppose concealed carry. They obviously do not care about Gays, Blacks, Hispanics, or the poor who are all at high risk of violent assault. The only people liberal politicians seem to honestly favor is the CRIMINAL class.
Since you called YOURSELF a liberal, I'd like you to explain what liberalism has going for it other than an insufferable conceit, and never ending ambition to tell other people what to do because they, the liberals, are imbued with wisdom, and compassion far beyond mortal understanding.

Using the past as an incredibly obvious object lesson, depicting a large portion of the American citizenry as sub-human vermin will either lead to death camps or civil war.

I'll put this real bluntly, starting a war with 70 million Americans who presently own at least 250 million firearms is pretty darn stupid.

"Tone down the rhetoric"?

Your compatriots declare war on us every day.
Your liberal politicians and lobbyists demand every day that we surrender our weapons.

My answer is and ever will be:
"MOLON LABE"

"Come and take them."

EC
 
Nightflurry, don't worry, we exist, albeit quietly. Just don't expect too much in the way of sympathy, seeing as apparently we're in a position analogous to that of Muslim terrorists in the eyes of some. :rolleyes:

And, welcome to TFL!
 
Edison: I'm not going to strongly disagree with you. Why do I trust the liberal anti-gun politicans? I don't. I trust even less the current batch of neo-cons though. Shooting is my one single real hobby these days, and you'd never make me give it up. However... in the system we have I have to vote for the guy I think is going to cut my throat the gentlest, and I agree with the liberal views on 90 out of 100 items. I believe our government can fight terror and protect our rights at the same time like it's done in the past. I don't think Iraq was a good move at all for a million different reasons. I think neo-con trade policy is a total joke. Trickle down economics?

I wish there were more than two ****ty choices, but I have to take the one that smells the least rotten until the system changes from winner take all to proportional representation where all parties and views are presented fairly. I know that's heresy to say that, but I really believe that would knock our politics into shape.

You present me with a real conservative like Eisenhower or Teddy and you got my vote even though I'm a liberal. I can respect a true conservative. I can NOT respect a neo-con or a neo-liberal much, I also don't like packaged middle of the roaders (Though again I don't mind the real ones).
 
Welcome Nightflurry,

I fall to the right of center on the great continuum of political beliefs.

One of the beefs I have with many Liberals, here and elsewhere, is the insistence to label and relabel themselves and others.

The "Neo-con" Liberal label is evil sounding meaningless rhetoric, an attempt to re-invent Conservatives.

"Progressive" is a Liberal attempt to re-invent themselves.

I know there are pro-2nd/pro-gun Liberals. I see them on here. Most are capable of meaningful discourse without name calling or labeling. In fact without pro-2nd Liberals there would not be CC in many states which now have a "shall law".

A good point was made that virtually all of the Democrat leadership carries the anti-gun water. A good example is Howard Dean. While Dean was Governor he was not outspokenly anti-gun, in fact a case could be made he was pro-gun. Now as DNC chairman he seems to keep his pro-2nd feelings to himself and pander to the anti-gun left.

TFL Legal and Political is unlike any other political forum I am aware of in that there has a mixture of Liberal and Conservative members. Much of the rhetoric which is acceptable on Liberal or Conservative, "preach to the choir" forums is not welcome here.

My only advise to new Liberal or Conservative members is 1. keep your divisive labels to yourself and state your position, 2. If you are stating statistics or "facts" post a link to the source, and 3. NO HITLER REFERENCES. You will find mostly civil discourse here tempered by mutual appreciation of 2nd A and the shooting sports.

Again Welcome.
 
Welcome aboard, Nightflurry.;)

We may be able to convert some fence sitters, but I do not believe it is possible to convert the dyed-in-the-wool liberal/Democrat/leftist to our side.

The only hope of getting the hardcore liberal to see the light is if they themselves get a dose of reality in the form of being victimized by a criminal thug (and hopefully being rescued by a gun carrying citizen). That sometimes will cause them to rethink their position but there are some that still refuse to come to terms with reality after such an event. As the saying goes, "There is none so blind as those who refuse to see."

Edison Carter is 100% on the money with every word of his post. The problem is not gun owners - it is the antigun/antifreedom bigots (politicians) who want to disregard the Bill of Rights and disarm lawful citizens. It is no coincidence that about 95% of those antigun bigot politicians are Democrat.

The Democrat party has been taken over by politicians who are comitted to socialism and there is the problem. They believe in government of the experts, by the experts and for the experts - not government of the people, by the people and for the people as The Founders envisioned.

There are 80 million gun owners in the United States. In 2004, John Kerry - the most antigun Presidential candidate in history - lost by only a little over three million votes. That tells us that there are millions of gun owners who are voting for those who would disarm us.

I am of the opinion that gun owners should never vote for a candidate with the 100% antigun voting history that Kerry has. He should have lost by 80 million votes, not three million. When gun owners vote for socialist antigun bigots like Kerry and Clinton, they are stabbing all gun owners in the back. They are telling the world that our right to arms really isn't that important.

What could be more important??
 
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We've been BSd by the left for so long in this country that I'll only believe the thread poster when I see dem/libs voting records change to pro gun.

Until then, I'm not sold.
 
The correlation of being a gun owner and also being a social conservative with all the antifreedom values that goes with that package must be broken.

I find little love for liberty and personal freedom among the social conservative gun owners except for having a gun. Otherwise, they are just as statist and wanting to control others as anyone. They think that is OK as their restrictions on liberty are divinely inspired or so they think.

Flame suit on! :D
 
The problem is, conservatives aren't so conservative any more. The Republican party has taken on way too many of the attributes of their supposed opponents. The choice we are being offered today is socialism or "socialism lite.":barf:

As someone else here said, "I'm not a Republican - I'm too conservative to be a Republican." Amen to that!
 
They obviously do not care about Gays
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Yes, there is a certain irony in seeing conservatives look to the gay community for support for RKBA issues when most conservatives by and large consistently have done their utmost to infringe on how they conduct their lives. Ironic, and self-serving ...
 
I find little love for liberty and personal freedom among the social conservative gun owners except for having a gun. Otherwise, they are just as statist and wanting to control others as anyone. They think that is OK as their restrictions on liberty are divinely inspired or so they think.
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ya ya

The conservatives that seem determined to control who marries who, what people put into their bodies, who can hire who, what can be aired on tv and on the radio yet are all about gun ownership don't care about freedom. They don't mind tyranny as long as they're the ones on the top of the food chain.
 
They obviously do not care about Gays
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And Democrats obviously do not care about potential victims of violent crime - which is all 280 million of we American citizens. The Democrats will trade our safety and our right to protect ourselves for more power and control for their political elite.

History proves this over and over and over again.
 
Pipoman,
The term 'neo-con' was *not* coined by liberals, it was coined by the neo-cons themselves in order to distinguish themselves from what they called "paleo-cons". Look it up if you doubt me.
The reason it sounds evil is because it is associated with their evil deeds.
Just as the term "liberal" has become a dirty word because it's tainted by their deeds.

A neo-con is a statist in every sense, and the exact opposite of my beliefs.
 
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