Pro-gun groups at odds over federal bill improving background checks
- Thread starter MoW
- Start date
Antipitas, you may want to check this website. A lot of vets are finding out they can't buy buy firearms now because they bought the VA line that they needed anti-depressants to handle PTSD or other problems. Now their records are part of the gov. database and they are judged to be mentally defective. I fear this bill is more of the same and will preclude ANYONE that has ever been treated for depression from purchasing firearms. It is my opinion that the NRA is once again "compromising" us down the river.
http://www.neahin.org/programs/schoolsafety/gunsafety/mccarthydingell.htm
badbob
http://www.neahin.org/programs/schoolsafety/gunsafety/mccarthydingell.htm
badbob
" A lot of vets are finding out they can't buy buy firearms now because they bought the VA line that they needed anti-depressants to handle PTSD or other problems."
Got a reputable reference?
I don't believe it. Being diagnosed or prescribed a med does not meet the standard necessary to be classified mentally deficient. In more than 30 years I have yet to work with a vet who was not allowed to purchase a gun because he took some meds from the VA. Amazing how many vets like guns - must be the hunting calendar on my office wall that gets them talking about it. Felonies, yes; meds no. It pretty much takes an involuntary committment or plea of not guilty by reason of insanity to lose the ability to buy a gun.
John
Got a reputable reference?
I don't believe it. Being diagnosed or prescribed a med does not meet the standard necessary to be classified mentally deficient. In more than 30 years I have yet to work with a vet who was not allowed to purchase a gun because he took some meds from the VA. Amazing how many vets like guns - must be the hunting calendar on my office wall that gets them talking about it. Felonies, yes; meds no. It pretty much takes an involuntary committment or plea of not guilty by reason of insanity to lose the ability to buy a gun.
John
johnbt, reference the link above and read this article. A google search will turn up more.
The law MAY protect them if they file an appeal and jump through the hoops. badbob
YOUR PAPERS, PLEASE ...
VA gives FBI health secrets
Veterans' records could block firearms purchases
Posted: June 22, 2000
1:00 a.m. Eastern
By Jon E. Dougherty
© 2000 WorldNetDaily.com
Record-sharing practices by federal government agencies may be preventing certain veterans and their beneficiaries from buying guns.
A division of the Department of Veterans Affairs has provided the FBI's National Instant Background Check System, or NICS, with confidential medical competency data on tens of thousands of veterans and beneficiaries for the purposes of denying "incompetent" veterans the right to "purchase or redeem a firearm."
According to a Veteran's Benefits Administration, or VBA, memo issued June 2, in November 1999, the agency "provided NICS with an initial load of data on incompetent veterans, surviving spouses, adult helpless children and dependent parents from information in the Benefits Delivery Network and the Fiduciary Beneficiary System."
The memo said the information transfer to the FBI "consisted of data on 88,898 beneficiaries which were loaded into the NICS index" for cross-referencing in case a named veteran or beneficiary attempted to purchase a gun.
The agency said when the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms drafted the regulations for NICS, the agency "defined the seven categories of individuals prohibited from purchasing or redeeming firearms." BATF, the memo said, incorporated the Department of Veterans Affairs' definition of incompetent -- which says that "because of injury or disease [a person may] lack the mental capacity to contract or manage their own affairs" -- into the "category of those adjudicated as a mental defective."
The VBA, through a "Memorandum of Understanding," is providing the FBI "with information on veterans rated as incompetent," the memo stated.
Furthermore, the VBA said the law requires it to "routinely provide updated information on 'new' incompetents." And, the agency said, "if an individual previously rated incompetent has their competency restored, under the law they are still permanently restricted from purchasing or redeeming a firearm and information concerning that individual will not be stricken from the NICS index."
The agency is currently developing procedures to "provide NICS with data on veterans and beneficiaries that have been determined to be incompetent since November 1999 and for periodic future updates."
VBA officials did not return repeated phone calls for comment.
However, an FBI spokesman who talked with WorldNetDaily called the plan "a good idea" and a way "to prevent those who are mentally incapable of having a gun from getting one."
Others have expressed outrage and regret upon learning of the VBA's release of veterans' health records to a government law-enforcement agency.
"We're concerned about this information on law abiding citizens being turned over [to the FBI]," said Brian Naranjo, a spokesman for the American Legion.
He added that while the organization has "always supported obeying the law and law enforcement," its membership "has also always supported the Second Amendment's right to bear arms."
And, Naranjo added, "the thing is these people are veterans. They served their country honorably and were discharged honorably. They shouldn't be denied their rights."
He said the Legion was also concerned about the possibility that mistakes contained in the information the VBA has given to the FBI could wrongly prevent some vets from buying a gun. He noted that the organization "will be studying this in detail and issuing" a strong statement "clarifying our position" in the near future.
According to the VBA memo, NICS and the FBI have requested a "quarterly review of a sampling" of records and information being transferred, "for quality assurance purposes."
The goal of the sampling -- which used just 107 cases out of the thousands transferred -- was "to confirm the determination of incompetency" made by Veteran's Affairs, "as well as the beneficiary's Social Security number and date of birth."
The VBA memo said that in all cases examined in the sampling, the incompetency rating was "found to be appropriate in all cases."
However, "a number of cases" contained mistakes, including misspelled names, missing name components (such as middle initials or titles like "Jr."), as well as Social Security and birth-date errors.
The memo said personnel corrected the mistakes. The next scheduled sampling review is this month, though no date was provided.
The VBA also addressed the procedures beneficiaries should take if they are denied the right to buy a gun.
If a veteran or beneficiary was denied because of his or her competency rating, "he or she may request the reason for the denial from the agency that conducted the check of the NICS data," said the memo.
Even if a person who was formerly judged to be mentally incompetent has had competency restored, the memo said, they must still "appeal to the denying agency," such as "the FBI, or state or local law enforcement ... "
Meanwhile, on Wednesday, David R. Loesch, assistant director in charge of the Criminal Justice Information Services Division -- which manages the NICS data -- appeared before the Senate Judiciary Committee to report on the instant-background system.
"The FBI continues to work to build the volume and completeness of records in the NICS, but the accuracy of the records currently in the NICS appears to be quite high," Loesch told the committee in testimony on Capitol Hill.
"The NICS has a very effective appeals system which allows individuals who wish to contest a denial to appeal the decision," he said. However, he added, "less than 1 percent of all checks conducted by the NICS Operations Center have resulted in denials that are subsequently reversed.
"These reversals affect only 3.3 percent of all denials by the NICS Operations Center and in about half of these reversals, the mistake was the result of information missing from the original record," Loesch said.
The law MAY protect them if they file an appeal and jump through the hoops. badbobYOUR PAPERS, PLEASE ...
VA gives FBI health secrets
Veterans' records could block firearms purchases
Posted: June 22, 2000
1:00 a.m. Eastern
By Jon E. Dougherty
© 2000 WorldNetDaily.com
Record-sharing practices by federal government agencies may be preventing certain veterans and their beneficiaries from buying guns.
A division of the Department of Veterans Affairs has provided the FBI's National Instant Background Check System, or NICS, with confidential medical competency data on tens of thousands of veterans and beneficiaries for the purposes of denying "incompetent" veterans the right to "purchase or redeem a firearm."
According to a Veteran's Benefits Administration, or VBA, memo issued June 2, in November 1999, the agency "provided NICS with an initial load of data on incompetent veterans, surviving spouses, adult helpless children and dependent parents from information in the Benefits Delivery Network and the Fiduciary Beneficiary System."
The memo said the information transfer to the FBI "consisted of data on 88,898 beneficiaries which were loaded into the NICS index" for cross-referencing in case a named veteran or beneficiary attempted to purchase a gun.
The agency said when the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms drafted the regulations for NICS, the agency "defined the seven categories of individuals prohibited from purchasing or redeeming firearms." BATF, the memo said, incorporated the Department of Veterans Affairs' definition of incompetent -- which says that "because of injury or disease [a person may] lack the mental capacity to contract or manage their own affairs" -- into the "category of those adjudicated as a mental defective."
The VBA, through a "Memorandum of Understanding," is providing the FBI "with information on veterans rated as incompetent," the memo stated.
Furthermore, the VBA said the law requires it to "routinely provide updated information on 'new' incompetents." And, the agency said, "if an individual previously rated incompetent has their competency restored, under the law they are still permanently restricted from purchasing or redeeming a firearm and information concerning that individual will not be stricken from the NICS index."
The agency is currently developing procedures to "provide NICS with data on veterans and beneficiaries that have been determined to be incompetent since November 1999 and for periodic future updates."
VBA officials did not return repeated phone calls for comment.
However, an FBI spokesman who talked with WorldNetDaily called the plan "a good idea" and a way "to prevent those who are mentally incapable of having a gun from getting one."
Others have expressed outrage and regret upon learning of the VBA's release of veterans' health records to a government law-enforcement agency.
"We're concerned about this information on law abiding citizens being turned over [to the FBI]," said Brian Naranjo, a spokesman for the American Legion.
He added that while the organization has "always supported obeying the law and law enforcement," its membership "has also always supported the Second Amendment's right to bear arms."
And, Naranjo added, "the thing is these people are veterans. They served their country honorably and were discharged honorably. They shouldn't be denied their rights."
He said the Legion was also concerned about the possibility that mistakes contained in the information the VBA has given to the FBI could wrongly prevent some vets from buying a gun. He noted that the organization "will be studying this in detail and issuing" a strong statement "clarifying our position" in the near future.
According to the VBA memo, NICS and the FBI have requested a "quarterly review of a sampling" of records and information being transferred, "for quality assurance purposes."
The goal of the sampling -- which used just 107 cases out of the thousands transferred -- was "to confirm the determination of incompetency" made by Veteran's Affairs, "as well as the beneficiary's Social Security number and date of birth."
The VBA memo said that in all cases examined in the sampling, the incompetency rating was "found to be appropriate in all cases."
However, "a number of cases" contained mistakes, including misspelled names, missing name components (such as middle initials or titles like "Jr."), as well as Social Security and birth-date errors.
The memo said personnel corrected the mistakes. The next scheduled sampling review is this month, though no date was provided.
The VBA also addressed the procedures beneficiaries should take if they are denied the right to buy a gun.
If a veteran or beneficiary was denied because of his or her competency rating, "he or she may request the reason for the denial from the agency that conducted the check of the NICS data," said the memo.
Even if a person who was formerly judged to be mentally incompetent has had competency restored, the memo said, they must still "appeal to the denying agency," such as "the FBI, or state or local law enforcement ... "
Meanwhile, on Wednesday, David R. Loesch, assistant director in charge of the Criminal Justice Information Services Division -- which manages the NICS data -- appeared before the Senate Judiciary Committee to report on the instant-background system.
"The FBI continues to work to build the volume and completeness of records in the NICS, but the accuracy of the records currently in the NICS appears to be quite high," Loesch told the committee in testimony on Capitol Hill.
"The NICS has a very effective appeals system which allows individuals who wish to contest a denial to appeal the decision," he said. However, he added, "less than 1 percent of all checks conducted by the NICS Operations Center have resulted in denials that are subsequently reversed.
"These reversals affect only 3.3 percent of all denials by the NICS Operations Center and in about half of these reversals, the mistake was the result of information missing from the original record," Loesch said.
DonR101395
New member
Badbob,
They weren't denied based on being prescribed anti depressants, they were denied based on the VA determining they were mentally incompetant. I know many vets who have been prescribed anti depressants and can still buy guns, the difference being they weren't deamed incompetant by the VA or military. Counseling and presciptions generally don't take you out of the gun club, unless you are ordered by a court into treatment, or go admit yourself and a doctor determines you are incompetant.
They weren't denied based on being prescribed anti depressants, they were denied based on the VA determining they were mentally incompetant. I know many vets who have been prescribed anti depressants and can still buy guns, the difference being they weren't deamed incompetant by the VA or military. Counseling and presciptions generally don't take you out of the gun club, unless you are ordered by a court into treatment, or go admit yourself and a doctor determines you are incompetant.
DonR101395, I agree that is the way it's supposed to work, unfortunately it's not working the way it's supposed to in many cases. Anytime another layer is added, or another database if you will, the system becomes more prone to errors. Those errors can be, and have been, a royal pain to get resolved. Many vets, rather than try to resolve the matter, have just accepted the denial. You may want to check this page. While it doesn't address vets directly, it shows some of the problems with the system.
http://www.jpfo.org/tta050829.htm
badbob
http://www.jpfo.org/tta050829.htm
badbob
Hey badbob,
Regarding Dougherty: I read his book about illegal immigration about 5 years ago. It was THE SINGLE WORST book I have ever read.
THEN, about two years ago, I was researching something, and there was an article Dougherty "wrote" that seemed awful familiar. I went back through my stuff, and there was a Washington Times article I was remembering about the exact same subject and with a similar title..
Basically, Dougherty downloaded the Times article at 8am, very slightly changed the wording of some of the sentences, and then submitted it to WND at about 5pm the VERY SAME DAY.
I wrote him a letter about it. Obviously, I didn't get a response.
Anyway, the story is probably accurate, but only because he stole it from someone else. The man disgusts me. He probably makes twice what I do, and as a borderline retard.
Regarding Dougherty: I read his book about illegal immigration about 5 years ago. It was THE SINGLE WORST book I have ever read.
THEN, about two years ago, I was researching something, and there was an article Dougherty "wrote" that seemed awful familiar. I went back through my stuff, and there was a Washington Times article I was remembering about the exact same subject and with a similar title..
Basically, Dougherty downloaded the Times article at 8am, very slightly changed the wording of some of the sentences, and then submitted it to WND at about 5pm the VERY SAME DAY.
I wrote him a letter about it. Obviously, I didn't get a response.
Anyway, the story is probably accurate, but only because he stole it from someone else. The man disgusts me. He probably makes twice what I do, and as a borderline retard.
MeekAndMild
New member
You'd get a better response writing the original author and the original publisher. Some folks get upset about copyright infringement.
GOA vs NRA--big deal. Schumer would love nothing more than a food fight to erupt amongst the progunners.
I just wish GOANRA would defocus just a hair and go back to Schumer at a with a proposal. "Chuck, you think we need to improve NICS, right? We here at GOANRA may or may not agree with you, but here is what we do agree on. You will not get your improvements to NICS unless we here at GOANRA get rollback somewhere else. We'll give you one step forward but we will get at least one step backward."
What would be a nice offset?
--Right of self defense for DC residents
--Name anything associated with turning the bATFE into a 21st century bureaucracy.
--How 'bout making the bATFE go away.
--National reciprocity
And the list goes on. I woulda thunk someone in GOANRA would know how to play chess.
I just wish GOANRA would defocus just a hair and go back to Schumer at a with a proposal. "Chuck, you think we need to improve NICS, right? We here at GOANRA may or may not agree with you, but here is what we do agree on. You will not get your improvements to NICS unless we here at GOANRA get rollback somewhere else. We'll give you one step forward but we will get at least one step backward."
What would be a nice offset?
--Right of self defense for DC residents
--Name anything associated with turning the bATFE into a 21st century bureaucracy.
--How 'bout making the bATFE go away.
--National reciprocity
And the list goes on. I woulda thunk someone in GOANRA would know how to play chess.