Priming Tool Choices

The problem is in not knowing what another individual who is successful with his target loads is feeling when he seats a primer. Some folks with some equipment are going to generally hit the sweet spot whether they intended to or not. Not knowing who those folks are means not knowing what role that did or didn't play in their championship success.

Naval Ordnance at Indian Head studied primer seating and refined the targeted range of reconsolidation of small and large primers used in military munitions from the 0.002"-0.006" number originally recommended by Olin and Remington to 0.002"-0.004" for primers from those same companies. They want ammunition that works reliably from -65°F up to desert temperatures rather than peak accuracy in most instances, and that is affected by optimum seating. But that also means ignition regularity is affected by it.

In the mid-'90s, Federal recommended 0.002" for their small rifle and 0.003" for their large rifle primers. I've not heard of any change in that recommendation. I mention it to point out there is some brand variation here due to differences in primer sensitivity.

The same thing that produces the tighter velocity spreads mentioned by Dan Hackett (and we don't know what he was feeling when he seated a primer "hard", or what tool he was priming with) is also reducing variation in ignition time from the firing pin strike to the bullet exit. Since no shooter holds perfectly still, that can sometimes result in the muzzle being directed in slightly different directions at the moment the bullet departs. If, say, one shot spends half a millisecond getting the powder to burn and the next takes five milliseconds to do it, the motion of the muzzle can open groups up pretty significantly. The shooter won't be able to discern that small delay other than by group size, and there are lots of different causes that affect group size, so he may be spinning his heels for quite a time trying to find it.

That last point is why I use the fancy tools when I am working up a new load. I want to get all the variables out. I can then drop the extra effort items one-at-a-time to see if my groups start to open up as a result. If I still get great precision without any special effort or precautions, I consider that a great load, as it will be relatively immune to any variables in my loading process.
 
People don't stop to think that 20, 30, 50 years ago tiny groups were being shot by people without $1500 annealing machines, and $2000 scales. If a primer is seated to the bottom of the cup, it is seated. No micrometer adjustments required

And I have always said time and distance are factors.

F. Guffey
 
I have never noticed any difference in accuracy of my loaded ammunition which I could attribute to the priming tool.

When it comes to priming tools there is the tool and the operator of the tool. And there is the 'sky is falling' group. No where can I find where R. Lee defended the Lee Auto prime system. He did blame the operator and the manufacturer of primers. And then there was the UPS driver that blew his thing off (tail gage).

I have 4 Lee Auto Primes systems with extra parts; I have experience with the Lee round tray priming system. I have never brown the lid off of if one of my primer systems by Lee.

When loading the tray I have never reduced the number of primers, I start with 100 and I have loaded the tray from the big box Federal sleeve without dropping one primer.

Problem; reloaders (some) have the nervous habit of double clutching, you would thing

the reloader would give the handle one stroke for one primer. Problem, two strokes will cause two primers to feed. Without enough leverage to seat the top primer will protrude’ the protrusion will not allow the case to be removed to clear the jam. Never have I found a situation where the reloader identifying the protruding primer as being the problem.

I have never recommended the reloader use one primer to seat another primer; I suggest one stroke for each primer, two stacked primers reduces leverage, when leverage is reduced the reloaders has a bad habit of going for two hands or two thumbs.

F. Guffey
 
Naval Ordnance at Indian Head studied primer seating and refined the targeted range of reconsolidation of small and large primers used in military munitions from the 0.002"-0.006" number originally recommended by Olin and Remington to 0.002"-0.004" for primers from those same companies. They want ammunition that works reliably from -65°F up to desert temperatures rather than peak accuracy in most instances, and that is affected by optimum seating. But that also means ignition regularity is affected by it.

In the mid-'90s, Federal recommended 0.002" for their small rifle and 0.003" for their large rifle primers. I've not heard of any change in that recommendation. I mention it to point out there is some brand variation here due to differences in primer sensitivity.

I just uniform my primer pockets before firing the first shot, load the ammo in a consistent manner push the primer in as far as possible and get consistent results. I have used a old school Lee hand primer, RCBS hand primer, RCBS bench primer, the Hornady priming system on the AP press, and single primed on a RC and never noticed any changes in accuracy with any of them.

On the other hand I can vary between a hard hold and free recoil and change the point of impact and group sizes using ammo pulled from the same box. Uniformed primer pockets and consistence seating depth is necessary, but whether the brand primer is .002 or .003 beneath flush has never seemed to matter as long as it is consistent.

Tell ya what though I ordered a Holland's Perfect Primer Adaptor Kit for my RCBS bench primer to give it a test

https://www.hollandguns.com/
 
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People don't stop to think that 20, 30, 50 years ago tiny groups were being shot by people without $1500 annealing machines, and $2000 scales. If a primer is seated to the bottom of the cup, it is seated. No micrometer adjustments required

Lets go back to flintloacks and the creedmoor position. that's when men were men and rifles were an extension of their machismo. As with almost everything the law of diminishing returns makes experimentation for better ammo expensive. It behooves us to look toward the professionals to see what resources greater than ours use in an attempt to further their livelihood. Sometimes there are to many variables to accurately evaluate what is better. A list of variables from ammo to rifle to the shooter would be very long.

hounddawg you are the voice of economy reloading. And that's fine. But it does not refute others experience as to what works for them. Annealing every time allows me to achieve very light and consistent bullet seating and neck tensions without neck turning. My dispenser is quicker and more accurate than throw weigh and trickle. Someday caseless ammo with propellant to the microgram will exist (if guns still exist.) Then you will have only the variables of people and rifles.

A quote that probably applies to both of us "The lady doth protest too much, methinks". As long as people are happy with their ammo, it is "good" ammo no matter how they achieve their results.
 
dawg
The jug has to be added to the list . Calm down big boy . I'm getting tired with these hissy fit.

Chris
 
Since no shooter holds perfectly still, that can sometimes result in the muzzle being directed in slightly different directions at the moment the bullet departs

In Accuracy :A Brief Guide to Precision Shooting Frank Troy tells of a load developer for the AMU that swore that when shooting off a bench in a tunnel environment he could move his foot three inches between shots and change the point of impact. Between shots not during.

but back to the primer seating , the reason I decided to buy that micrometer adapter for my RCBS is that any difference in primer ignition will result in a change in lock time and ignition time. At my last match I heard a competitor claiming how a that between the time he pulled the trigger the bullet left the barrel so fast that recoil could not alter it. I just smiled, listened and thought to myself "keep on thinking that and I will keep on beating you"

Lets go back to flintloacks and the creedmoor position. that's when men were men and rifles were an extension of their machismo.

no need to go back that far, 1973 will do. This record was held for 40 years and during that 40 years tons of new advances on the technology end

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/tag/world-record/

show me any scientific proof anywhere that annealing does anything to improve velocity SD's, don't look too hard becasue there is absolutely zero...nada..none.

I post my targets and spreadsheets. Not all that great, no record breakers but my scores have went from have went from 91% to 96% in 13 months using the same economy rifles and economy reloading techniques. Just practice every week, 2 barrels burned out and about 3000 bullets sent down range

People can spend the money where they want, it's a lot easier to blame the gun or the ammo than it is to figure out if you are using consistent techniques at the bench and to learn to read the environment. You can't solve a problem until you admit it exists and it seems everyone on forums thinks they have the wind reading ability of Erik Cortina and the bench technique of Tony Boyle. I know what my problem is and I really wish I could solve it instantly with a new toy from Brownels but I think to get that last couple of percent it is going to take another few thousand rounds of ammo and a few more barrels sacrificed

@ CW - use the ignore feature, that's what I do when posters get on my nerves
 
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dawg
The jug has to be added to the list . Calm down big boy . I'm getting tired with these hissy fit.

Chris

Not at all History is important as a jumping off point. I'm a firm believer in those that neglect history are doomed to repeat it. But I also believe "Foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds." I push and prod in my reloading process. I have accomplished consistent ammo. There are always differences in the reloading process. My post was my attempt at humor. It was trying to evoke an emotion. You just picked the wrong one.:cool:
 
show me any scientific proof anywhere that annealing does anything to improve velocity SD's, don't look too hard becasue there is absolutely zero...nada..none.

I post my targets and spreadsheets. Not all that great, no record breakers but my scores have went from have went from 91% to 96% in 13 months using the same economy rifles and economy reloading techniques. Just practice every week, 2 barrels burned out and about 3000 bullets sent down range

People can spend the money where they want, it's a lot easier to blame the gun or the ammo than it is to figure out if you are using consistent techniques at the bench and to learn to read the environment. You can't solve a problem until you admit it exists and it seems everyone on forums thinks they have the wind reading ability of Erik Cortina and the bench technique of Tony Boyle. I know what my problem is and I really wish I could solve it instantly with a new toy from Brownels but I think to get that last couple of percent it is going to take another few thousand rounds of ammo and a few more barrels sacrificed

@ CW - use the ignore feature, that's what I do when posters get on my nerves

My claims for annealing is consistent resizing and consistent and low bullet seating tensions. Some claim neck tensions are key to accuracy. I don't know that there is "scientific" evidence to that either.

People don't stop to think that 20, 30, 50 years ago tiny groups were being shot by people without $1500 annealing machines, and $2000 scales. If a primer is seated to the bottom of the cup, it is seated. No micrometer adjustments required

My original post in this thread was about the primer seating tools I have and use. You brought up annealing and scales in your post not I. You attacked my process. I defended.

attachment.php


Series 1 Shots: 5 43.8
Min 2644 Max 2663
Avg 2654 S-D 7.4
ES 19

Series Shot Speed
1 1 2652 ft/s
1 2 2654 ft/s
1 3 2644 ft/s
1 4 2660 ft/s
1 5 2663 ft/s
---- ---- ---- ----
Series 2 Shots: 5 44
Min 2649 Max 2655
Avg 2651 S-D 2.4
ES 6

Series Shot Speed
2 1 2655 ft/s
2 2 2651 ft/s
2 3 2649 ft/s
2 4 2652 ft/s
2 5 2649 ft/s
---- ---- ---- ----
Series 3 Shots: 5 44.2
Min 2649 Max 2664
Avg 2659 S-D 6.0
ES 15

Series Shot Speed
3 1 2649 ft/s
3 2 2660 ft/s
3 3 2663 ft/s
3 4 2664 ft/s
3 5 2661 ft/s
---- ---- ---- ----
Series 4 Shots: 5 44.4
Min 2662 Max 2684
Avg 2676 S-D 9.1
ES 22

Series Shot Speed
4 1 2678 ft/s
4 2 2662 ft/s
4 3 2684 ft/s
4 4 2684 ft/s
4 5 2674 ft/s
---- ---- ---- ----
Series 5 Shots: 5 44.6
Min 2672 Max 2682
Avg 2675 S-D 3.8
ES 10

Series Shot Speed
5 1 2674 ft/s
5 2 2676 ft/s
5 3 2672 ft/s
5 4 2675 ft/s
5 5 2682 ft/s
---- ---- ---- ----

Both of these were load testing. I think my SDs are lower in this instance. It does not prove it since it is a statistically insignificant sample. Therefore science does not hold my view.

Since some here have a problem with my postings, I am contemplating leaving the group. I do not have the patience or endurance of F. Guffey.
 
Jug
We all have our own way of reloading , I have my time in the barrel every once an awhile with some posters , and even though I don't agree 100% I still take away some new ideas . Don't drop out just take it down a notch .

Chris
 
yep in that instance, as noted in the thread that was the first 50 rounds down that barrel. For the first five rounds the rifle was cleaned between each round, then every two shot for the next twenty. Then every five for the rest of the test. Tomorrow I will test that load at 800 to see if I need to refine it but it shoots the lights out at 100 - 300. I will know within ten shots just from looking at the vertical spread whether the SD is acceptable

this target was shot at 300 yards with that same 37.5 gn load seated at .035 from lands which was primed with a RCBS bench primer, with non annealed brass, powder weighed on a $20 scale and shot by a guy who had never shot in competition 13 months prior. A 1/8 MOA scope adjustment would have done that target more good than all the scales and annealing machines in the world


edit maybe in a year or two or three or ten I will get my technique honed down to point where I can see a difference on target caused by a mis seated primer or a few kernels of powder or a annealed or non annealed case but right now things like that are lost in the noise of my shooting

https://i.imgur.com/bY72kxd.jpg
 
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Let me explain why I can't do targets. I have a sand pit next to my house that I can shoot 600 yards easily. I quit using that because a new neighbor called the sheriffs on me. They really didn't have a problem because I was being safe. But the neighbor went to the state DOT and they erected signs saying it was " STATE OWNED PROPERTY NO TRESSPASSING." So I found a very convenient range that only goes to 100 yards. It is 8.3 miles away. I found a new range last year that goes out to 1000 yards. It is a 2 hour drive. Only the 100 yard range is not steel. I can do my load tests on the 100 yard range, but any further is steel only range hot all the time. They use mostly standard torso targets. My best group is at 500 yards. After shooting the body seemed to easy and noticed a good grouping I tried 10 head shots. I ended up with a group about 4" wide and maybe 1 1/2" high. I couldn't grab that target, Perhaps I'll carry a camera next time. This was with my 223 gas gun. Just 10 head shots in a row would have impressed me with that gun. My windage hold was off the target for that group.

I'll make you a deal. I won't mention my annealer or scale in another thread, unless pertinent to the thread, if you don't mention it. I will also watch my inflammatory humor. Honestly no one has raised my ire on a bulletin board for many years.
 
Let me explain why I can't do targets.

if you can't do targets then how do you test to see what makes a difference and what does not ? For me it is all about the targets, the targets are the only test that count. The top shooters may be able to tell a difference as I said, but I am not a top shooter. Maybe you are.

anyway now that the thread is completely derailed. I will go back to what I said my original post and recommend a RCBS or Lee or any other common primer tool

Apologies to the OP for derailing his thread
 
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Actually that is true of car, guns and wives (and computers!)

I don't have the time nor the (?) to anneal each time. Maybe I would if I was Tubbs!

But to having read a run down on bench shooters (something like 12) and all of them had different ideas of what worked and what did not.

Hmm, confidante is a factor.

So, having the list of things you can try and then suit yourself for what time you want to spend, vs shooting and if putting rounds together is as much or more fun than shooting (seems like it)

My take is I don't mind relaoding, but I would rather shoot.

So I go with what gets me the most shooting with the least effort (and watning to do unde 1/2 inch gorups)

What I really need is someone elses gun and loads that have proven to be tack drivers 1/8 inch holes and see how I do. then I could separate me from the gun and loads.

Ah well, not going to happen, hard telling what the right way is due to all the variables as well.

Or as I used to say (cycle guy) I bet Kenny Roberts could beat me with my CB700 even if I was driving his VRF750!!
 
if you can't do targets then how do you test to see what makes a difference and what does not ? For me it is all about the targets, the targets are the only test that count. The top shooters may be able to tell a difference as I said, but I am not a top shooter. Maybe you are.

[snip]

Apologies to the OP for derailing his thread

I still do all my load testing at 100 yards on paper. Unlike other internet prophets my groups do not fall apart or get smaller at longer distances. The biggest difference is wind. It is just what I'm stuck with.



Finally I think Kenny Robert's heyday was on Harleys and Yamahas. I was a cycle guy until a car turned left in front of me. The 5 broke ribs, broken shoulder leading to a replacement, fractured hip and thumb, and tension pneumothorax that the next 11 days in the hospital did not resolve completely led to a $180,000. I used some of that money to buy some toys for reloading. If I ever tire of my process, I'll add a Dillion press.
 
Just got back from the range doing a sight in at 800, the 6CM load above shot a pair of 1/3 MOA vertical groups at 800. My buddy was up there telling me how he just got a third place in a 1000 yard match. He used a RCBS 750 Chargemaster for his ammo building, who woulda thunk he could even place with those powder charges
 
Just got back from the range doing a sight in at 800, the 6CM load above shot a pair of 1/3 MOA vertical groups at 800. My buddy was up there telling me how he just got a third place in a 1000 yard match. He used a RCBS 750 Chargemaster for his ammo building, who woulda thunk he could even place with those powder charges

I am humbled by your presence. It is obvious your priming tool selection is the cause of this. I don't know why you keep bringing up powder dispensers. Since you did ask your friend given the choice would he rather use a dispenser accurate to plus or minus .1 grain or plus or minus .02 grains. It is implied that you think I'm stupid for spending my money. Please don't worry I have more.

I have the sinclair single primer and it is very solid and good. I then lost the large primer parts and got the Frankford Arsenal Perfect Primer tool kit. It is serviceable.

I stand by my first post and was quiet until you threw this in:

People don't stop to think that 20, 30, 50 years ago tiny groups were being shot by people without $1500 annealing machines, and $2000 scales. If a primer is seated to the bottom of the cup, it is seated. No micrometer adjustments required

Seems you may have a personal vendetta against me. Why else bring up scales and annealers in a primer tool thread?
 
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Does anybody have a proposal to test all three out against each other? Maybe load 10 of each with a proven load and measure Sd?

I’m thinking the criteria are something like 20 round group size; 20 round chrono data; 20 round sd vertical shift; 20 round seating depth, 20 round seating feel....other?
 
Does anybody have a proposal to test all three out against each other? Maybe load 10 of each with a proven load and measure Sd?

uneven primer seating will affect the SD significantly, as will uneven shoulder pressure on the stock or a weak firing pin spring

2 ways to check without introducing the human element or other gun related issues into the test

1- take a fired case and deprime it. Look to see if there is a thin ring of clean brass at the outside edge of the primer pocket where the primer was sitting flush against the bottom of the primer pocket. You might even see bright spots where the "feet" of the primer kept carbon from forming in the pocket

2- if you have uniformed the primer pockets you can measure the thickness of the primer, measure the depth of the primer pocket using the depth rod of your caliper. Subtract primer thickness from the pocket depth. Should be .002 - .005 difference. Seat a primer and see if the primer is sitting below the case head by the same amount as the difference as you came up with in your pocket/primer measuring.

The army marksmenship team thinks anywhere between .002 and .006 below the case head is acceptable

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2016/01/primer-seating-depth-uniformity-and-accuracy/
 
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