Precision Shooters
- Thread starter Poconolg
- Start date
buckhorn_cortez
New member
The only way I've been able to shoot .5 MOA or less consistently is off of a concrete bench, using sandbags under the gun, and a sandbag on the barrel in a 100 yard tunnel so that wind is not a problem.
But, I've never claimed to be an exceptional rifle shooter...just realistic...
But, I've never claimed to be an exceptional rifle shooter...just realistic...
I have a lot of rifles, in fact several that have been identical builds, but only a few that I could shoot a 5 shot group under .5" on a consistent basis, and one, I think I actually cried a little when it fell off from consistent 0.3" 5-shot groups. Now 2 barrels later, it has still not gone under 0.60" for a 5 shot group.
My guess is that it is less than 1% of shooters that have the numerous abilities it takes to shoot sub 1/2 MOA at any distance for 5 shots even given a rifle that is capable.
I got to shoot with a few really old guys, (their guns) in a tube with manually stabilized (bags and pods, etc. as opposed to machine rest) rifles that they were printing 6 10 shot, dime sized groups at 100 yards on 3x5 cards. Out of 6 groups, they would almost always get a few that were in the 1/4" or better range. I have also been in the tunnels of 3 ammo manufacturers and seen the groups produced by quality barrels in machine rests and their best ammo, little of it is better than 1/4" and most around 1/2".
My guess is that it is less than 1% of shooters that have the numerous abilities it takes to shoot sub 1/2 MOA at any distance for 5 shots even given a rifle that is capable.
I got to shoot with a few really old guys, (their guns) in a tube with manually stabilized (bags and pods, etc. as opposed to machine rest) rifles that they were printing 6 10 shot, dime sized groups at 100 yards on 3x5 cards. Out of 6 groups, they would almost always get a few that were in the 1/4" or better range. I have also been in the tunnels of 3 ammo manufacturers and seen the groups produced by quality barrels in machine rests and their best ammo, little of it is better than 1/4" and most around 1/2".
Art Eatman
Staff in Memoriam
Heh. Yeah, zeke. I'll be 82 in three weeks. Doing okay on know-how, but sorta running low on can-do. 
To answer the OP's question: very few and those that do are shooting off bags. I suspect that some of the beautiful groups pictured occasionally here, were shot a far less than 100 yds. Some, if you could look closely enough, have powder burns in and around the bullet holes...
The best shooters in the US, appear each summer at Camp Perry where the BS ends for most. 1/2 MOA rifles there are 'cause we have the technology to build them, but even the guys up on the space gun line there, have trouble with wind and position and loads.
Position shooting, without the bags, really separates the hard holders from the internet snipers.
Rod
The best shooters in the US, appear each summer at Camp Perry where the BS ends for most. 1/2 MOA rifles there are 'cause we have the technology to build them, but even the guys up on the space gun line there, have trouble with wind and position and loads.
Position shooting, without the bags, really separates the hard holders from the internet snipers.
Rod
Reality???
Since the internet, you see all sorts of sub min. groups posted.
Take away the internet, and go to the range, those groups disappear.
Take a gander at the scores fired at the NRA 1000 yard matches. You see very few cleaned scores.
The X-10 ring of the NRA 1000 yard targets is 20 inches in diameter. That is roughly 2 MOA.
If you and your rifle could shoot 1/2 min. groups consistently, you'd win darn near every match you attended.
Just about any modern rifle is capable of shooting 2 MOA, so in theory they should clean the 1000 yard target every time.
But they don't.
The weakest link is not the rifle, but the shooter.
Since the internet, you see all sorts of sub min. groups posted.
Take away the internet, and go to the range, those groups disappear.
Take a gander at the scores fired at the NRA 1000 yard matches. You see very few cleaned scores.
The X-10 ring of the NRA 1000 yard targets is 20 inches in diameter. That is roughly 2 MOA.
If you and your rifle could shoot 1/2 min. groups consistently, you'd win darn near every match you attended.
Just about any modern rifle is capable of shooting 2 MOA, so in theory they should clean the 1000 yard target every time.
But they don't.
The weakest link is not the rifle, but the shooter.
Sure Shot Mc Gee
New member
Having the proper weaponry_ caliber_ and scope set-up for doing. All the time every squeeze of the trigger its assured. On this topic. There are certain calibers that have a long standing reputation for shooting tight groupings. There are others calibers that are what I call: "every day fun guns." You can only hope you can improve on their accuracy with there target shootings.
Eatman probably has owned a couple of them old plug shooters in the past I'm sure.
Eatman probably has owned a couple of them old plug shooters in the past I'm sure.
FiveInADime
New member
I think people took a wrong turn in this thread.
The original post said nothing of 1/2 MOA at 1000 yards.
It said 1/2" groups at 100 yards (which is better than 1/2 MOA).
Also, it's implied that he meant from a bench-rest and not from field positions or on a High-Power line.
So, from a bench-rest at 100 yards, I say there's more shooters than rifles capable of consistent 1/2" groups (talking of factory rifles).
Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
The original post said nothing of 1/2 MOA at 1000 yards.
It said 1/2" groups at 100 yards (which is better than 1/2 MOA).
Also, it's implied that he meant from a bench-rest and not from field positions or on a High-Power line.
So, from a bench-rest at 100 yards, I say there's more shooters than rifles capable of consistent 1/2" groups (talking of factory rifles).
Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
As long as you have a high power optic that lets you clearly distinguish the target at that granularity, a decent trigger, and are shooting from a stable position (bags, bipod or a ruck) it should be no problem for most shooters to hold well under 1/2 MOA. What kind of groups the gun then produces is a function of the gun.
Factory rifle accuracy at 100 yds
In the real world, all one has to do is look at the rifle tests in the American Rifleman Magazine. Most firearms have trouble averaging under 1" @ 100 yds. Only draw back in the test, factory ammo is used. Here is one of the more accurate ones. Possibly hand picked from the production line?? https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2015/7/17/ruger-precision-rifle/
In the real world, all one has to do is look at the rifle tests in the American Rifleman Magazine. Most firearms have trouble averaging under 1" @ 100 yds. Only draw back in the test, factory ammo is used. Here is one of the more accurate ones. Possibly hand picked from the production line?? https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2015/7/17/ruger-precision-rifle/
Last edited:
In the real world, will casually walk into back room and pick from any number of rifles capable of consistent 1/2 inch at 100 yards. CZ's, Rock Rivers , RPR's or a Sig 3000 that are all capable of 1/2 in groups from bipod and rear bag. Whether I am still up to it is kinda shaky, like my hands and eyesight.
Course if I tried position shooting, would be more worried about getting back up off the ground. And ain't even as old (experienced) as Art!
And for some who may wish for high powered scope to make your groups tighter at 100 yards, others prefer less power to see less wobble.
Course if I tried position shooting, would be more worried about getting back up off the ground. And ain't even as old (experienced) as Art!
And for some who may wish for high powered scope to make your groups tighter at 100 yards, others prefer less power to see less wobble.
I can't say I've read every issue of American Rifleman, but in my experience they test very few precision rifles and lots of middle of the road stuff. Which is fine - they probably know their audience. They also test mostly with non-match ammo. So of course they get lots of 1"-2" groups - because that's the kind of equipment being shot.
I am gonna say a lot more rifles than shooters based on what I have seen. Most people just don't shoot that well and most don't take the time to see what ammo their rifle performs well with. Most groups I have seen at a public range aren't even 2 moa. For that matter, very few are 1 moa. If we are talking about serious shooters, the number will go up considerably but for the average rifle owning public, I would say that even 5% is HIGHLY optimistic.
I have a couple of rifles that, with very good reloads, will consistently shoot 3/8" at 100 yards. Unfortunately, our range has difficult wind and mirage problems that don't allow that to happen very often.
I've been a competition benchrest shooter, mostly rimfire benchrest, and my rimfire rifles/ammo and I have shot groups under 1/4" at 50 yards, but only under the best range conditions.
I've been a competition benchrest shooter, mostly rimfire benchrest, and my rimfire rifles/ammo and I have shot groups under 1/4" at 50 yards, but only under the best range conditions.
getting back up
I know that it was off the topic before but "Camp Parry(sic) fossils" ??? Whooeee.
And the shooting jacket comment??? Shooting prone, I think that the sling is more important than the jacket.
Sorry for going back off topic...
Pete
Yep.Getting back to vertical is the hard part of shooting prone.
I know that it was off the topic before but "Camp Parry(sic) fossils" ??? Whooeee.
And the shooting jacket comment??? Shooting prone, I think that the sling is more important than the jacket.
Sorry for going back off topic...
Pete
I began a quest to shoot a sub 1/2" 5 shot group at 100 yards two and a half years ago after reading a post here by "gglass" about his 700P. I ordered a new 700P and was immediately disappointed that I couldn't get under 3/4". Sometimes, it was a struggle to get sub 1" groups. I kept at it, asking questions and developing my loads. After I upgraded to competition dies things got a little better but still couldn't reach that magic size. I could get 3 out of 5 but would always have those two shots that expanded the group. Finally, I started really concentrating on being "neutral" on the gun. No left or right pressure in my grip.
Keeping just enough pressure on my shoulder but not so much that my heartbeat was causing huge jumps in the scope. At about 170 rounds through the gun, the stars aligned and I finally shot a sub .2" group. I was scared to pull the trigger on the last shot. Needless to say that completely stock 700 is now a keeper. I had a great mentor that taught me reloading and how to grip the gun properly. Moral of the story: be patient and work on the little things and it will happen. Still can't do it every time though...
Keeping just enough pressure on my shoulder but not so much that my heartbeat was causing huge jumps in the scope. At about 170 rounds through the gun, the stars aligned and I finally shot a sub .2" group. I was scared to pull the trigger on the last shot. Needless to say that completely stock 700 is now a keeper. I had a great mentor that taught me reloading and how to grip the gun properly. Moral of the story: be patient and work on the little things and it will happen. Still can't do it every time though...