Precision Shooters
- Thread starter Poconolg
- Start date
DaveP- Too funny!
But seriously, if you got together with all the shooters who claim to shoot 1/2 MOA and then selected a group of shooters from them who actually do shoot 1/2 MOA consistently, there would be a lot fewer in the group. As one acquaintance of mine said, if your group opens up, you just shoot another group until you get a 1/2" group. Right? Or you shoot 10 shots and pick the best 5.
Shooting groups is as much a discipline as any kind of shooting. If you can't consistently shoot a 1/2" group, you need to practice. Or buy a better rifle. Or a better scope. Or better ammo. This is how you get the guys with $5,000 rifles with $4,000 scopes on top of them. If you don't have the skill, chase it with money.
But seriously, if you got together with all the shooters who claim to shoot 1/2 MOA and then selected a group of shooters from them who actually do shoot 1/2 MOA consistently, there would be a lot fewer in the group. As one acquaintance of mine said, if your group opens up, you just shoot another group until you get a 1/2" group. Right? Or you shoot 10 shots and pick the best 5.
Shooting groups is as much a discipline as any kind of shooting. If you can't consistently shoot a 1/2" group, you need to practice. Or buy a better rifle. Or a better scope. Or better ammo. This is how you get the guys with $5,000 rifles with $4,000 scopes on top of them. If you don't have the skill, chase it with money.
Super Shoot Results http://benchrest.com/showthread.php?95179-Super-Shoot-Results
Yea even George Kelby Sr. was in there. There is nothing stock in those rifles but the loading components minus some bullets, powder and primers. Those guys a real wildcatters.
My old stock Mod. 700 will shoot 1/2"< 5 shot groups @ 100 Yds. when all the ducks are in a roe and the wind is in my favor. But not all day.
My old stock Mod. 700 will shoot 1/2"< 5 shot groups @ 100 Yds. when all the ducks are in a roe and the wind is in my favor. But not all day.
Hard to say, but here's one data point.
Last Sunday my wife and shot 15 five-shot groups with a cheap Howa 1500 "fun" gun (less than $1000 including scope), .223 with 1:9 twist barrel. We were testing my "plinking" ammo loaded on a progressive press with a Hornady Lock-N-Load mechanical powder dispenser; i.e. the cartridges were mass produced as quickly as possible using pick-up brass, inexpensive bullets, and the powder was not weighed. The idea was to see if I could make ammo quickly on my progressive press without weighing the powder or spending much time fiddling around, yet still have enough accuracy to have some fun.
Eight of the 15 five-shot groups were less than 1/2 MOA, two were better than 1/4 MOA and all were better than 1 MOA. My wife shot the best group of the day and all three of her groups were better than 1/2 MOA. She's not a serious shooter and only tagged along for fun. She goes to the range less than 6 times per year and usually shoots less than 20 rounds.
If I had been using my F/TR gun and my "competition ammo", which I carefully weigh, I can guarantee every 5 shot group would be better than 1/2 MOA. By the way, my wife and I are both well into our 70s and I'm going blind in my shooting eye. We've been target shooting for less than two years, but I read a lot about it and I told her how to squeeze a trigger.
So to answer your question, a great many folks on this forum COULD shoot 1/2 MOA five-shot groups at least half the time using an inexpensive factory gun and rather casual hand-loaded ammo if they put their mind to it. But most folks DO NOT put their mind to it.
Last Sunday my wife and shot 15 five-shot groups with a cheap Howa 1500 "fun" gun (less than $1000 including scope), .223 with 1:9 twist barrel. We were testing my "plinking" ammo loaded on a progressive press with a Hornady Lock-N-Load mechanical powder dispenser; i.e. the cartridges were mass produced as quickly as possible using pick-up brass, inexpensive bullets, and the powder was not weighed. The idea was to see if I could make ammo quickly on my progressive press without weighing the powder or spending much time fiddling around, yet still have enough accuracy to have some fun.
Eight of the 15 five-shot groups were less than 1/2 MOA, two were better than 1/4 MOA and all were better than 1 MOA. My wife shot the best group of the day and all three of her groups were better than 1/2 MOA. She's not a serious shooter and only tagged along for fun. She goes to the range less than 6 times per year and usually shoots less than 20 rounds.
If I had been using my F/TR gun and my "competition ammo", which I carefully weigh, I can guarantee every 5 shot group would be better than 1/2 MOA. By the way, my wife and I are both well into our 70s and I'm going blind in my shooting eye. We've been target shooting for less than two years, but I read a lot about it and I told her how to squeeze a trigger.
So to answer your question, a great many folks on this forum COULD shoot 1/2 MOA five-shot groups at least half the time using an inexpensive factory gun and rather casual hand-loaded ammo if they put their mind to it. But most folks DO NOT put their mind to it.
Me personally? I don't know of many that speak of 1/2 moa groups. I have a friend that is a phenomenal shot but we have never shot head to head to see who makes the smallest group. He can shot right with me, and he's the only one I know besides my son that I would trust to spot for me if I were to have to make a critical shot. My son can shoot very well, but I've never seen him print a 1/2 moa 5 round group. He could with the gear and some practice.
I don't shoot with anyone else that attempts to chase a tiny group. I will say, however, that not very many rifles are capable of this grade of accuracy. I built a rifle off a savage 110 action that would hold 1/2 moa groups when the barrel was new. Alas, 2k rounds later and my 5 round groups are more like 3/4 moa. I built the rifle to harvest 'yotes and possibly do some DM competition. I don't compete seriously but for fun and I don't want to part with the barrel yet. The point remains... You don't need 5k worth of hardware to achieve 1/2 moa, but any old rifle won't do either. So its partly a loaded question. How many people honestly have a rifle capable... Plus the ability to use it.
I don't shoot with anyone else that attempts to chase a tiny group. I will say, however, that not very many rifles are capable of this grade of accuracy. I built a rifle off a savage 110 action that would hold 1/2 moa groups when the barrel was new. Alas, 2k rounds later and my 5 round groups are more like 3/4 moa. I built the rifle to harvest 'yotes and possibly do some DM competition. I don't compete seriously but for fun and I don't want to part with the barrel yet. The point remains... You don't need 5k worth of hardware to achieve 1/2 moa, but any old rifle won't do either. So its partly a loaded question. How many people honestly have a rifle capable... Plus the ability to use it.
Based on what I have seen at my club and shooting with others, I think I am slightly above average rifle shooter when shooting with a scope and trending up. When shooting an iron sighted rifle, I am well above avg and trending down rapidly due to my vision deterioration.
I have 3 rifles that I believe are always capable of shooting 1/2 moa or better. 1 is a 3006 and 2 are centerfire 22 cal. Assuming fair conditions, temp between 40 degrees and 80. Wind equal or less than 10mph, I shoot 3/4 or less with these rifles virtually all the time. I shoot 1/2 moa about 60% of the time. I shoot 1/4 moa about 25% of the time. I believe the rifles and ammo are likely 1/4 moa. I believe I am likely 1/2 moa if i have to be but it requires extreme concentration which I struggle with for 5 shots. I'm impatient. And I don't always go through the same routine. As a result I drop 1 shot out of 5 from the group opening it up to 3/4 about 30-40% of the time. All my shooting is done in 5 shot groups. I have a very high percentage of 5 shot groups that have 3 and 4 shots into 1/4 moa but 1-2 of those will drop out to 1/2 or 3/4.
It's possible I'm wrong and the rifles and ammo are really 3/4 moa but I don't think so. I know when I don't breathe right or follow through or jerk the trigger or shift my focus before breaking the shot.
But that's why I go and practice.
I have 3 rifles that I believe are always capable of shooting 1/2 moa or better. 1 is a 3006 and 2 are centerfire 22 cal. Assuming fair conditions, temp between 40 degrees and 80. Wind equal or less than 10mph, I shoot 3/4 or less with these rifles virtually all the time. I shoot 1/2 moa about 60% of the time. I shoot 1/4 moa about 25% of the time. I believe the rifles and ammo are likely 1/4 moa. I believe I am likely 1/2 moa if i have to be but it requires extreme concentration which I struggle with for 5 shots. I'm impatient. And I don't always go through the same routine. As a result I drop 1 shot out of 5 from the group opening it up to 3/4 about 30-40% of the time. All my shooting is done in 5 shot groups. I have a very high percentage of 5 shot groups that have 3 and 4 shots into 1/4 moa but 1-2 of those will drop out to 1/2 or 3/4.
It's possible I'm wrong and the rifles and ammo are really 3/4 moa but I don't think so. I know when I don't breathe right or follow through or jerk the trigger or shift my focus before breaking the shot.
But that's why I go and practice.
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My 700 shoots 1/2" 5 shot groups quite consistently, with handloads. My M1a can do 1"- 1-1/4" with hand loads most of the time.
There are a lot of factors influencing how well a man shoots besides his equipment though, and everything has to come together.
This comes from a lot of practice, perfect practice.
There are a lot of factors influencing how well a man shoots besides his equipment though, and everything has to come together.
This comes from a lot of practice, perfect practice.
FiveInADime
New member
I'm going to say that, from a bench, 1/2"-groups are 90% gun+ammo and 10% shooter. I've set down behind a few rifles and most of them were NOT capable of 1/2" groups with the ammo that was available. I have shot 2-3 rifles that I can say are legit, 1/2" (5-shot groups) capable.
One is my new Savage .223 (with Federal GM Match or hand-loads with 68gr Hornady).
The second was a heavy-barrel Browning A-Bolt with a laminate stock in 7mmWSM (hand-loads, not mine). Great long-range, bean-field/chuck sniper rifle.
The third was a bone-stock 700 BDL in .270Win. that I shot four, five-shot groups in a row at 200-yards under an inch, with silver-box Winchester sp ammo. The crazy thing was it had an NC Star or Barska garbage scope with see-thru rings and I was standing at a high bench shooting off of a carpeted block. It was one of those angelic, God must exist, holy cow moments in my life. I offered to buy the rifle from the guy and he wasn't having it. It was most-certainly a hummer.
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One is my new Savage .223 (with Federal GM Match or hand-loads with 68gr Hornady).
The second was a heavy-barrel Browning A-Bolt with a laminate stock in 7mmWSM (hand-loads, not mine). Great long-range, bean-field/chuck sniper rifle.
The third was a bone-stock 700 BDL in .270Win. that I shot four, five-shot groups in a row at 200-yards under an inch, with silver-box Winchester sp ammo. The crazy thing was it had an NC Star or Barska garbage scope with see-thru rings and I was standing at a high bench shooting off of a carpeted block. It was one of those angelic, God must exist, holy cow moments in my life. I offered to buy the rifle from the guy and he wasn't having it. It was most-certainly a hummer.
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DaveP- Too funny!
But seriously, if you got together with all the shooters who claim to shoot 1/2 MOA and then selected a group of shooters from them who actually do shoot 1/2 MOA consistently, there would be a lot fewer in the group. As one acquaintance of mine said, if your group opens up, you just shoot another group until you get a 1/2" group. Right? Or you shoot 10 shots and pick the best 5.
Shooting groups is as much a discipline as any kind of shooting. If you can't consistently shoot a 1/2" group, you need to practice. Or buy a better rifle. Or a better scope. Or better ammo. This is how you get the guys with $5,000 rifles with $4,000 scopes on top of them. If you don't have the skill, chase it with money.
I chuckled at your comment as I've been able to consistently clean up 90% of the guys at our local matches with my clunky Sig SSG 3000 while running against guys with $5k-$10k rigs. I love it... Mind you I do have a custom rifle, but the Sig shoots just as well if not better.
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Art Eatman
Staff in Memoriam
I have no idea how many rifles I've owned and messed with over some sixty-plus years. But of those, three were "half-MOA, all day". A 1970s vintage Ruger .220 Swift, a 1990s vintage Bushmaster match target, and a Ruger 77 Mk II in .223.
My two favorite deer rifles? Just under one MOA.
My two favorite deer rifles? Just under one MOA.
I've never owned a rifle that would do that MOST of the time. Almost all of my rifles will put 3 shots under 1" roughly 90% of the time. Quite often I get some .5" or even smaller groups, but nowhere near 50% of the time. But I don't own a dedicated varmint or target rifle. Mine are all sporter or lightweight big game rifles. I'm content with that accuracy.
If I owned a rifle capable of doing it, I don't doubt that I could do it.
If I owned a rifle capable of doing it, I don't doubt that I could do it.