breakthrough
Moderator
When practicing shooting at range - what is a group? what is a good group? can someone explain this please?
practicing shooting - term - group?
- Thread starter breakthrough
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A group is a number of holes made in a target by a number of shots all aimed at the same location and generally all shot at the same distance. Example: "I shot several 5 shot groups at the range today at 25 yards distance."
Here's a picture of a group with annotations telling the size of the group (1" center to center), the number of rounds in the group (5 rounds), the date it was shot, the distance at which it was shot, the gun used (Glock 20, serial prefix AVK) and the type of ammo (Prvi Partisan Jacketed Hollow Point).
The group size is generally measured as the distance between the centers of the two holes in the group that are the farthest apart. In pistol shooting, the size of the group is typically expressed in inches. Example. I shot a 10 shot group that measured 3 inches at 15 yards.
Here's a picture of a group with annotations telling the size of the group (1" center to center), the number of rounds in the group (5 rounds), the date it was shot, the distance at which it was shot, the gun used (Glock 20, serial prefix AVK) and the type of ammo (Prvi Partisan Jacketed Hollow Point).
The group size is generally measured as the distance between the centers of the two holes in the group that are the farthest apart. In pistol shooting, the size of the group is typically expressed in inches. Example. I shot a 10 shot group that measured 3 inches at 15 yards.
Deaf Smith
New member
A group is when more than two shooters congregate into a small area. A good group is when one of them brings the beer.
But on the serious side, aw.. JohnKSa gives a good post on it (but it's no fun.)
Deaf
Some people quibble on how many shots constitute "a group". Many riflemen, all of whom can outshoot me, say 3 rounds is enough, but I prefer 5-shot groups for rifles, just because it gives a sort of "worst case under best circumstances" estimate of what I am capable of with that rifle. For real pistols, and not the single-shot chopped & channeled hunting-only hand-cannons, I think 5 shots is pretty commonly accepted as the minimum number to constitute a group.
And, under ANOTHER little-known, seldom-used rule, the definition of "group" from 5 shots to 3 shots can only be changed by the shooter in the group who brings the beer, for the rest of the group!
And, under ANOTHER little-known, seldom-used rule, the definition of "group" from 5 shots to 3 shots can only be changed by the shooter in the group who brings the beer, for the rest of the group!
"a good group" ....is relative...depending on what you're trying to accomplish..
a "bulls eye shooter"...shooting at 10 yds is going to be happy with a 1" group of 5 shots..../ all slow fire ...maybe 5 shots in 2 min.../ shooters with less experience might be happy with a 3" group. I had a nationally known self defense / tactical instructor tell me once that for a warmup - he wanted to see 5 shots from your carry gun ideally to be covered by a circle no bigger than 2", slow fire, at 10 yds....and after you shoot your training drills...he wants that 5 shot drill done again...and still keep all 5 shots in that 2" circle...( and its harder to do than you think - after you've shot 3 or 4 boxes and are mentally a little tired). As shooters get better -he wanted all 5 shots touching...at 10 yds...
a "tactical" shooter. Drawing from a holster ...and putting 5 "tactically accurate" shots center mass on a silhouette target...wants the draw and five shots to be done in under 4 seconds( 2 sec for draw to 1 shot and 0.5 sec between shots max - for an average shooter) ...and they want "Tactically Accurate" basically a rectangle - roughly a line from nipple to nipple or about 8" accross and 11" down toward belly button. Any of the 5 shots - anywhere inside that 8 " X 11" rectangle is Tactially Accurate. If the group is too tight - the shooter should speed up because they're sandbagging.... if you have hits outside that rectangle - they need to slow down. Any shot inside the rectangle is a good shot.../ good group....in that sense..../ par time for an average shooter is 4 sec...master class is closer to 2 sec.
a "bulls eye shooter"...shooting at 10 yds is going to be happy with a 1" group of 5 shots..../ all slow fire ...maybe 5 shots in 2 min.../ shooters with less experience might be happy with a 3" group. I had a nationally known self defense / tactical instructor tell me once that for a warmup - he wanted to see 5 shots from your carry gun ideally to be covered by a circle no bigger than 2", slow fire, at 10 yds....and after you shoot your training drills...he wants that 5 shot drill done again...and still keep all 5 shots in that 2" circle...( and its harder to do than you think - after you've shot 3 or 4 boxes and are mentally a little tired). As shooters get better -he wanted all 5 shots touching...at 10 yds...
a "tactical" shooter. Drawing from a holster ...and putting 5 "tactically accurate" shots center mass on a silhouette target...wants the draw and five shots to be done in under 4 seconds( 2 sec for draw to 1 shot and 0.5 sec between shots max - for an average shooter) ...and they want "Tactically Accurate" basically a rectangle - roughly a line from nipple to nipple or about 8" accross and 11" down toward belly button. Any of the 5 shots - anywhere inside that 8 " X 11" rectangle is Tactially Accurate. If the group is too tight - the shooter should speed up because they're sandbagging.... if you have hits outside that rectangle - they need to slow down. Any shot inside the rectangle is a good shot.../ good group....in that sense..../ par time for an average shooter is 4 sec...master class is closer to 2 sec.
There's a little more to this as well.
The size of the group denotes accuracy of the pistol/shooter/ammo combination.
The position of the group in relation to the target center shows several things.
Are the sights set correctly?
Are you holding the gun correctly?
Are you using the trigger correctly?
& so on.
The shape of the group shows up other things.
It should be circular & evenly distributed.
If its a tall thin shape that's called "vertical stringing" but if its a wide shallow group that's called "Horizontal stringing".
If there is constantly a group with one or two "outliers" or "flyers", that's indicative of yet another set of problems.
By learning all these, & how they relate to each other you can find out all sorts of good info on how to improve your shooting.
This:
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/04/27/ebumyzyn.jpg
may prove helpful to you in understanding why some things happen.
The size of the group denotes accuracy of the pistol/shooter/ammo combination.
The position of the group in relation to the target center shows several things.
Are the sights set correctly?
Are you holding the gun correctly?
Are you using the trigger correctly?
& so on.
The shape of the group shows up other things.
It should be circular & evenly distributed.
If its a tall thin shape that's called "vertical stringing" but if its a wide shallow group that's called "Horizontal stringing".
If there is constantly a group with one or two "outliers" or "flyers", that's indicative of yet another set of problems.
By learning all these, & how they relate to each other you can find out all sorts of good info on how to improve your shooting.
This:
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/04/27/ebumyzyn.jpg
may prove helpful to you in understanding why some things happen.
And, measuring groups is almost always center-to-center of the most widely spaced holes. Measure the extreme spread, then subtract one bullet diameter to get the center-to-center spread.
I like to shoot 10-shot groups, not so much to see if I can keep a larger number of rounds in a tight group, but because it gives a better idea about the true center of the group.
I've shot five-shot groups that looked centered, but after firing five more, it was clear that seven of the holes were on one side of center and three on the other side.
What is a "good group" is entirely subjective.
If you are new to shooting handguns, then keeping all rounds on a paper plate (9") might be a challenge at ten yards.
As noted, "bullseye" is generally concerned with absolute precision, while "practical" accuracy will be a relationship of accuracy and speed.
The former will take as much time as necessary to get the smallest group, while the latter will accept a larger spread in the interest of speed.
I like to shoot 10-shot groups, not so much to see if I can keep a larger number of rounds in a tight group, but because it gives a better idea about the true center of the group.
I've shot five-shot groups that looked centered, but after firing five more, it was clear that seven of the holes were on one side of center and three on the other side.
What is a "good group" is entirely subjective.
If you are new to shooting handguns, then keeping all rounds on a paper plate (9") might be a challenge at ten yards.
As noted, "bullseye" is generally concerned with absolute precision, while "practical" accuracy will be a relationship of accuracy and speed.
The former will take as much time as necessary to get the smallest group, while the latter will accept a larger spread in the interest of speed.
group
To mention a fine point....whether the "group" is 3, 5, 10 shots. These are consecutive shots.
If a shooter shoots ten shots at a target and shots 1,3,4,7,8 are all in a one inch cluster that is not a one inch group....even though it looks like one and shows a tendency toward that degree of accuracy. The "group" would be all ten shots.
Here is a pistol target shot at 100 yards...much as the shooter might want this to be a two inch group considering the four shots to the left....it ain't. It is a four inch group. Even five more shots together with those on the left will not make it less than a four inch group.
To mention a fine point....whether the "group" is 3, 5, 10 shots. These are consecutive shots.
If a shooter shoots ten shots at a target and shots 1,3,4,7,8 are all in a one inch cluster that is not a one inch group....even though it looks like one and shows a tendency toward that degree of accuracy. The "group" would be all ten shots.
Here is a pistol target shot at 100 yards...much as the shooter might want this to be a two inch group considering the four shots to the left....it ain't. It is a four inch group. Even five more shots together with those on the left will not make it less than a four inch group.
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22-rimfire
New member
The terms accuracy and precision are also tossed around with the most common term being "accuracy". Accuracy refers to the ability of the gun to produce "groups" (say using a ransom rest/vise) or simply the closeness of the bullet hole clusters on the target which reflect the gun, ammunition, and shooter combination. Precision refers to placing the group where you want it.... say the bulls eye of a target. Obviously, the shooter wants both accuracy and precision but most simply refer to it as "accuracy".
I shoot for "groups" with a 22 rifle a fair amount. I am not so concerned about where the group is on the target as much as the dimension of the group. I can always adjust the sights to move the group to the point of aim or some predictable point that I prefer. Sighting in a center fire rifle to be 1" high at 100 yds is a common kind of thing with hunters. I'm generally not a good enough handgun shot to worry about that level of precision.
Groups are commonly measured with a caliper, but for casual shooting, I use an engineers scale or even a tape measure.
Why are groups measured/reported "center to center"? The actual bullet varies in diameter and displaces more or less width on a target. If you are shooting a 45 caliber gun, the best group would be one hole or 0.45" in diameter. But the true measurement is that each round is hitting precisely ("precision") at the same point which might be thought of as a pencil dot in size or theoretically "zero inches" in diameter. So, you subtract out the average diameter of your bullet. People refer to "one hole groups", but it is typically just a tight cluster of holes that overlap on the target.
I shoot for "groups" with a 22 rifle a fair amount. I am not so concerned about where the group is on the target as much as the dimension of the group. I can always adjust the sights to move the group to the point of aim or some predictable point that I prefer. Sighting in a center fire rifle to be 1" high at 100 yds is a common kind of thing with hunters. I'm generally not a good enough handgun shot to worry about that level of precision.
Groups are commonly measured with a caliper, but for casual shooting, I use an engineers scale or even a tape measure.
Why are groups measured/reported "center to center"? The actual bullet varies in diameter and displaces more or less width on a target. If you are shooting a 45 caliber gun, the best group would be one hole or 0.45" in diameter. But the true measurement is that each round is hitting precisely ("precision") at the same point which might be thought of as a pencil dot in size or theoretically "zero inches" in diameter. So, you subtract out the average diameter of your bullet. People refer to "one hole groups", but it is typically just a tight cluster of holes that overlap on the target.
breakthrough said:
BigJimP did a pretty good job of summarizing how "good" depends on what you're trying to accomplish.
But when folks on these forums ask "what's a good group", they generally mean "if I were to just pick up a hangun and fire 5 rounds as accurately as I can, what would be considered a good group?".
My general answer to this is a good (but not exceptional) group is 3" @ 25 yards (some would argue 3@25 is a very good group). This is an honest (no "fliers" - everything counts) 3" 25 yard 5-shot group, shot unsupported and under no time constraints using an appropriate bullseye-type target and a reasonably accurate service-sized handgun. Good shooters ought to be able to deliver this consistently.
22-rimfire
New member
I would venture to say that 3" with a centerfire handgun at 20 yds and 2" at 10 yds would be a pretty respectable groups. The only handguns that I shoot at distances beyond 20-25 yds are ones that I might use for hunting. The dominant reason is I can see the holes with my naked eyes versus using some sort of magnification and hence do not have to walk up to the target as often if shooting outdoors. Plinking cans does not count. I do that up to about 100 yds.
RickB said:
Because, frankly, the "average" is gawd-awful bad. 3@25 is definitely not world-class, but it's definitely do-able by the average Joe with reasonable amounts of practice and some good instruction. Hence, good, but not exceptional.
It may not be something you're ever going to see at your local public range (see my first sentence above), but there's a world of good shooting out there beyond that.
Bob Wright
New member
I don't measure my groups, but keep the data at times to see how a certain gun handles a certain load. I look primarily for consistancy. I lack a machine rest, and even if I did, the bench where I shoot is not stable enough to warrant its use.
But this is what this gun did with this load:
These go into my photo file for loadiong data.
Bob Wright
But this is what this gun did with this load:
These go into my photo file for loadiong data.
Bob Wright
kilimanjaro
New member
One-shot groups are the best, anything over two rounds involves determining which one is the 'flyer' and not to be included.
Bob Wright
New member
Like this?
Bob Wright
I would just like to add a note regarding the common goal of "one ragged hole". My odds of each round in an average or crappy group overlapping increase with rounds fired. If I fired a thousand rounds of 9mm at the same paper target my overall "ragged hole diameter" could greatly exceed one's accuracy expectations based on that highly charged term.
A single shot from a cold barrel with no warmup time is the most accurate depiction of accuracy. Others will surely feel differently. There was a phenomenal post on definitions even recently.
A single shot from a cold barrel with no warmup time is the most accurate depiction of accuracy. Others will surely feel differently. There was a phenomenal post on definitions even recently.
Highesthand
Inactive
What's a good group?? Good god you've opened the pandora's box! That's like asking how long someone's.... Oh well this thread seemed quite tamed though.
All jokes aside, at my range, I barely see any regulars. Every time I go, it is someone different and they probably are doing it a few times a year, AKA, ultra casuals.
Since this place is pretty popular and there's a huge wait time even for members, I spent most of my time just watching people. The average groups that I noticed while waiting for my port is probably 8 inches at 5 yards. I've seen only a couple of people who knew what they were doing and went to 25 yards and shot pretty impressive groups.
Basically out of the hundreds maybe thousands of people I've seen shoot, I've seen maybe like 5-10 that are competent and maybe 2 that impressed me. I really have to say that the 8 inch groups at 5 yards guesstimate applies to about 99.7% of the people I've seen.
All jokes aside, at my range, I barely see any regulars. Every time I go, it is someone different and they probably are doing it a few times a year, AKA, ultra casuals.
Since this place is pretty popular and there's a huge wait time even for members, I spent most of my time just watching people. The average groups that I noticed while waiting for my port is probably 8 inches at 5 yards. I've seen only a couple of people who knew what they were doing and went to 25 yards and shot pretty impressive groups.
Basically out of the hundreds maybe thousands of people I've seen shoot, I've seen maybe like 5-10 that are competent and maybe 2 that impressed me. I really have to say that the 8 inch groups at 5 yards guesstimate applies to about 99.7% of the people I've seen.
.Highesthand
Inactive
Pretty much, I would personally have to go one step above you to say 3@25 with 5 shots isn't just good, but great, but that's just my opinion.
Sub2@25 would be professional.
2-3@25 is phenomenal
3-5 is great
5-7 is good
sub10 is decent.
But then again that's only because I want to raise my own confidence and say I'm an awesome shooter You may have higher standards.
But I think anyone who at least tries to commit to gun should at least aim for 6@25 with 5 shots.
Sub2@25 would be professional.
2-3@25 is phenomenal
3-5 is great
5-7 is good
sub10 is decent.
But then again that's only because I want to raise my own confidence and say I'm an awesome shooter
You may have higher standards.But I think anyone who at least tries to commit to gun should at least aim for 6@25 with 5 shots.