Practical Rifle?

Jeff Cooper was a blow hard. He acted like he discovered the concept of the
carbine & long eye relief scopes. He was the driving force to get companies
interested in producing Scout Rifle models. Hunters been using carbines since
the advent of rifled barrels.

I'm glad someone else thinks the same thing. I got real tired of his words of wisdom and writing in the third person. He was a smart man but struck me as extremely arrogant.

In the same vein as the Madsen rifle I have an old Remington 30-06 model 700 I bought cheap because the bluing is thin and the stock had all that funky high gloss finish flaking off. But the bore is perfect and the bolt lugs have a 95% contact and the gun is a shooter.

I removed all the old finish and sanded out most of the old scratches and restained. Then finished with Minwax satin polyeurathane spray. Good enough. Its the most practical of all my rifles in that its reasonably light weight and with a Williams peep accurate enough for my needs. And its a pleasure to be able to wrap my hand around it without a scope interfering.

Plus the 30-06 case with its long neck makes it a good round to shoot lead bullets from without the bullet base being exposed to the powder charge. And I have midrange power loads in the form of Remington 150gr 30-30 bullets loaded to 2500fps and full power loads if those are needed. Just a darn good all around rifle to have.
 
Seem's to me that years ago there was a competitive class called practical rifle. Don't know much at all about it but think it would be a rifle suitable to carry around hunting. Isn't there a hunter class competition rifle class now? What ever the OP is looking for I would guess it's a hunter class rifle!

No, that assumption would be a mistake.

A 'practical rifle' isn't a 'hunting' rifle. It's meant to be a general purpose rifle, of which hunting is one sub-category of use - possibly the major use, but not the only use.

A practical rifle is intended to be suitable for defensive use as well, whether in terms of individual self-defense or as part of the collective defense of a larger organized group.

So it must be suitable for all foreseeable defensive scenarios for which you would want or need a rifle first, as opposed to a handgun.
 
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I got real tired of his words of wisdom and writing in the third person. He was a smart man but struck me as extremely arrogant.

Don't confuse the man, personally with his writing style. You need to understand the style of the times. "Experts" were expected to be a bit smug, arrogant and condescending to us mere mortals.

You will find similar attitudes in other gun writers of the same era, though the degree varies.

I'm always skeptical when the word "practical" is used in competitions. It often starts well, but ends with very 'unpractical" things designed to get the most advantage possible with the game rules.

Stock cars were, originally, totally "stock", what you found on every dealer's showroom floor. What are they, today?

PPC was originally "Practical Pistol Competition". Look where the guns for that wound up being...
 
Practical: of or concerned with the actual doing or use of something rather than with theory and ideas.

As such, there is no such thing as a "labeled" or "branded" practical rifle. Rather it is a rifle best suited to a specific task, or set of tasks. The "Scout" rifle is one configuration "theorized" by Cooper to be able to do many things well. If that configuration meets the tasks, then, it is by definition a practical rifle.

Most times, the term practical, as associated with a rifle has an additional modifier. such as "Practical Field Match Rifle" (magazine fed bolt gun with bi-pod and maybe other gear) or even a rule set, such as those used in "USPSA" rifle or 3Gun matches, the letter "P" in the acronym standing for "practical" (typically AR pattern rifles).

A practical rifle might well be considered a scoped R700 or M70 in a variety of hunting calibers with a sling suitable for hunting big game. Or a heavy barreled .22-250 with a high mag optic suitable for shooting prairie dogs, gophers or woodchucks. Practical, must have some sort of task, from do-all to highly specialized, and then actually used and deemed to have been well suited to the task set.
 
Don't confuse the man, personally with his writing style. You need to understand the style of the times. "Experts" were expected to be a bit smug, arrogant and condescending to us mere mortals.

You will find similar attitudes in other gun writers of the same era, though the degree varies.

At the time Cooper was writing for G&A I was just learning about guns. I read everything I could get my hands on. I had been reading Guns & Ammo for a few years before Cooper came along. And of all the writers I read he was the one I liked the least. He came across as the ultimate Know-It-All. If you were not shooting a 45acp then you were simply not armed and a fool for shooting something like a 9mm.

As far as similar attitudes I never saw it. Most writers wrote stories that taught me something without talking down to me. I trade emails with my most favorite writer of all, Terry Murbach. He used to post here but lately he has been hard to reach. I hope he is well. But he never had any attitude at all. Just excellent, usable information on guns.

I wish there were still smart gunwriters like Jan Libourel, Dave Arnold, Ross Seyfried and a few others that I don't need to name. Most here know who they are.;)
 
Cooper, born only fourteen years before me, wrote in his third person style as a result of the schooling of the time when engaged in formal writing.

I had much of the same teaching in school, and even more so in writing as a professional engineer.

We are more informal, nowadays, but that does not make the old ways wrong.
 
Man-sized targets at 300m and in, from prone and standing, involving running between shooting positions.
Sounds EXACTLY like a job for a carbine configuration AR-15.

 
targets

I've got to ask the question, what kind of targets? Certainly the .223/5.56mm, with its flat trajectory and modest recoil, makes hitting targets of much size at 300 yds simpler. With a bit of thought as to point blank zero, you could pretty much hold on and shoot and not worry too much about drop.

Great for punching paper and the gun games. Good for varminting too. And our military and others have used it as a combat round. But if we are considering a "practical rifle" as a real world, one rifle, GP nearly do it all firearm, I 'd want a bigger caliber. Not that I'll ever do it, but I can't see wandering Alaska or Africa, or even parts of the U.S. Rockies, with a .223 and feeling like I had enough gun. I see the .223 running out of steam as a whitetail killer much past 100 yds, and it certainly is not an elk, moose or black bear rifle. The .260/6.5 would be my low end,and at the high end, .308/.30'o6. A happy compromise might be 7mm-08, but the .30's would be more common.

I'd want the rifle to be as fool proof as possible......manual/bolt action, so as to feed and function with all ammo types and not dependent on a gas system/recoil system for cycling. Big trigger parts like the M70 and the Mausers, Big extractor/ejector parts too. And I would want a blind magazine.........no mags to loose, no silly floorplate to dump my ammo in the mud. A set of bombproof iron sights, regardless if you scope it or not.

Do I own such a rifle, no, but I have one that comes close.
 
As far as similar attitudes I never saw it.

Of course, it varied with the writer and the subject sometimes it was pretty subtle, sometimes not so much.

I recall an article by no less an authority than Townsend Whelen, where he clearly and firmly stated that the only reason the whitetail deer still existed in the United States was the semi-buckhorn rear sight. (meaning it was very poor)

Man-sized targets at 300m and in, from prone and standing, involving running between shooting positions.
Sounds EXACTLY like a job for a carbine configuration AR-15.

If you create a course of fire that involves running between shooting positions, I wouldn't find that practical. I'm old, fat, and more than borderline lazy, and I lost interest in shooting games that simulate the run, dodge, & Jump part of my military training decades ago. SO, if you're going to call something "practical" you might consider something that actually IS practical, for more than a certain group of people...

If you need to be a low drag, high speed operator to run the course, fine, but call it something else, other than "practical". :rolleyes:
 
If you create a course of fire that involves running between shooting positions, I wouldn't find that practical. I'm old, fat, and more than borderline lazy, and I lost interest in shooting games that simulate the run, dodge, & Jump part of my military training decades ago. SO, if you're going to call something "practical" you might consider something that actually IS practical, for more than a certain group of people...

If you need to be a low drag, high speed operator to run the course, fine, but call it something else, other than "practical".

Well, Gunsite's multi-day Scout Rifle course, which is designed to be a crucible for testing "practical" rifles and their operators under the blazing hot AZ sun - admittedly, most of those being factory or home-made variants on the SR theme - involves a lot of shootin' and scootin' between field-positions.

Target sizes and distances vary, and the field positions, aside from traditional standing and prone, include kneeling, 'Rice Paddy' prone (low squatting), Roll-Over prone (and reverse ROP), and several other contortions, all while being expected to run hither and yon and work your very 'practical' bolt stick smooth as silk.

Over the years, pictures from Gunsite's SR courses reveal that its students are mainly so-called 'Old Farts' (i.e., distinguished-looking gents over 60). At days end they are very winded, well-sweated, and sore to the point of limping, but still get up the next day and return for more, ah, 'exercise,' for the admirable purpose of testing themselves and their equipment as they strive for reasonable competence, ... which is the happy confluence of practical accuracy and smooth efficiency in using the weapon.

What said 'Old Farts' are doing with their SRs, albeit at a much slower pace, is pushing themselves through the same sort of 'move-n-shoot' drills, intended to replicate real-would scenarios, which the young, tattooed AR-studs do in all the 'tactical' 5.56 AR courses taking place around the country - ... 'tactical' here referring to the set-up of the weapon.

The drills and ambulatory courses of fire in both settings are definitely practical - or perhaps to put it more correctly, are exercises in the practical use of the weapon. But whether for hunting or defense, 'practical use' has no place for motionless 'bullseye' or target shooting, and it doesn't involve a benched position, sand bags, or other stationary or rested aids, other than on the morning of Day 1 to confirm zero at a given distance. Once zeroed, you're up and moving and looking for cover or concealment, real or simulated.

As I once heard an instructor advise: "On the 2-way firing ranges of the real world, only the dead and the dying are stationary." :eek:

Gaining practical skill with a practical rifle takes work. It's much like what Thomas Edison once said about the nature of life's 'Golden Opportunities': most folks ignore them, because they come dressed in overalls and look like work. :rolleyes:

In any real-world situation where you'll need your very practical rifle to deal with a very real and immanent threat, you won't be doing it leisurely off a bench, between sips of coffee, intermittent texting on your I-phone, and stuffing crunchy Crullers donuts. ;)

Herewith ends the sermon.

:cool:
 
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As I once heard an instructor advise: "On the 2-way firing ranges of the real world, only the dead and the dying are stationary."

Gaining practical skill with a practical rifle takes work. It's much like what Thomas Edison once said about the nature of life's 'Golden Opportunities': most folks ignore them, because they come dressed in overalls and look like work.

In any real-world situation where you'll need your very practical rifle to deal with a very real and immanent threat, you won't be doing it leisurely off a bench, between sips of coffee, intermittent texting on your I-phone, and stuffing crunchy Crullers donuts.

All great points. Having just finished shooting Heavy Scope at RM3G, and people ask my "Why?". My answer is that it is because it is harder. A .45 (with 10 round mags), Pump 12g and .308. Still (being old and fat) managed to be on page 2 of 5 in the overalls. No-one is going to push you except you.
 
The point I was trying to make (and badly, apparently) is that, in my life, returning to the glory days of infantry combat training isn't practical, for me.

In any real-world situation where you'll need your very practical rifle to deal with a very real and immanent threat, you won't be doing it leisurely off a bench,...

I won't argue that at all. Only that, for myself, I haven't been in that kind of situation in over 40 years, and don't expect to be if I am granted another 40, or even 20. If it's your thing, I guess you can call it what you want, but if it's the rifle equivalent of NASCAR racing, I don't think its any more practical than racing is to daily street and highway driving.
 
Why does it always turn into a discussion about what rifle to kill another person at 300 yards thread? I don't make my gun purchases based on how well will this gun kill my opponent.:(

I mentioned reading Guns & Ammo many years ago. And yes some of the handguns reviewed were for the express purpose of defending your life from an attacker. But many articles were about guns used for trail walking, plinking and back ups to hunting rifles. Now you can't hardly find an article about trail guns or hunting guns. All the write ups are about tactical rifles and handguns and of course shotguns. I stopped reading guns mags many years ago. The forums like this are so much better.:D

For me a 30-30 is a much more practical rifle than an AR with a 30 round mag in it. A 30-30 or a simple bolt action does about all I need a rifle to do. And if I had to I can hit a man at 300 yards with a 30-30. I know because I have shot my Marlin at that range. It was easy to do.:)
 
For use on our southern Illinois farm, I found an SKS to be very practical. Can't use rifles on deer here, but coyotes are always an issue with the cattle. They're wily and wary, so if ya ever want to get a shot at one, ya pretty much need to carry a rifle 24/7. On the tractor, in the truck, 4-wheeler, etc. That means it's gonna get beat to heck (and mine did). Don't think I could bring myself to abuse a nice rifle that way, so that's why something that's already ugly, rugged, and cheap fit the bill. Not to mention the ammo is/was so cheap, I didn't worry about "wasting" it. Even blasted field mice and grass hoppers with it. Can I see a show of hands? How many of you in this thread have shot grasshoppers with your centerfire rifles? :D
 
This is my practical rifle for nearly all big game hunting in North America: Savage 99 chambered for .308 and fitted with a Vortex 2-7X rifle scope. This dandy muley was taken within western South Dakota. Shot distance was approx 150 yards or so.

Jack

 
“In any real world situation”.......for most of us the real world of shooting does not involve the Gunsite curricula. I am not in the military, not in Iraq, not in Afghanistan, have never been in a gunfight (and with any luck at all, that will continue to be so). The real world for me and, I suspect, most others is the hunting fields, the range, and matches.
 
The real world for me and, I suspect, most others is the hunting fields, the range, and matches.

Then you, and perhaps 'most others,' have a very nice hunting rifle, and a very nice, accurate rifle for match competition, and likely another that's just a 'fun' plinker to enjoy on those long, lazy Sunday afternoons at the range. In other words, you have niche rifles.

Good for you.

What you don't have in any of those is a 'practical' rifle where 'practical' is synonymous with a centerfire rifle of 'all-around usefulness,' which includes suitability for sustained defensive use and long-term durability under field conditions. It's not just about deer hunting for a few hours in the fall where you'll take 1 to 3 shots at most.

In my view, those criteria, with some exceptions, break heavily in favor of a semi-automatic Mil-based action. Possum's mentioned his 7.62 SKS as a practical-rifle candidate, and while that wouldn't be my first choice, it seems to fit the "all-arounder" criteria.

Non-autoloader exceptions might include the Madsen M47 mentioned in an earlier post, or the various U.S. Mil bolt guns.
 
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What you don't have in any of those is a 'practical' rifle where 'practical' is synonymous with a centerfire rifle of 'all-around usefulness,' which includes suitability for sustained defensive use and long-term durability under field conditions.

OK, now that you have given your definition of "practical" we can have a discussion..

Could you also define "sustained defensive use" and "long term field conditions"? Because without an agreed upon standard, what meets my definition might not meet yours, and vice versa.

And then there is the matter of what can work, vs. what is likely to work best.

If my idea of sustained defensive use is a belt fed HMG and long term field conditions is a year in the mud of Flanders fields with zero cleaning, few single rifles will meet that, in whole or part.


Non-autoloader exceptions might include the Madsen M47 mentioned in an earlier post, or the various U.S. Mil bolt guns.

What, no love for the SMLE??? :rolleyes::D
 
What you don't have in any of those is a 'practical' rifle where 'practical' is synonymous with a centerfire rifle of 'all-around usefulness,' which includes suitability for sustained defensive use and long-term durability under field conditions.
OK, now that you have given your definition of "practical" we can have a discussion.

Mr. AMP sir, or dude, ...

... as much as I appreciate the implied compliment, the above was not 'my' definition of 'practical' or 'practical rifle,' but the one more or less given by several others, including Jeff Cooper, but most recently as summarized by Richard Mann in his exhaustive 'The Scout Rifle Study.' (A read which I highly recommend even if you can never ever see yourself buying or building one). Mann supports that definition with characteristics derived from a thorough historical review, Cooper's writings, and a variety of modern commercial specimens which he fully critiques.

So if you haven't read the book, trying to discuss the relevant attributes (or lack thereof) of what makes for a 'practical rifle' is, at best, like talking to a wall. :rolleyes:

Could you also define "sustained defensive use" and "long term field conditions"? Because without an agreed upon standard, what meets my definition might not meet yours, and vice versa.

'Long term field conditions' would be at least several months of use without regular cleaning. Not necessarily shots fired everyday, but shot routinely - maybe 3-4 days out of 7 without cleaning. I've done that with some of my 'beater' M1s without cleaning, although, technically, I don't consider running a bore snake through the chamber and barrel to be the same as cleaning it with a rod, brush, patches, solvent, and a chamber brush.

If the modifier 'sustained' rankles you, just omit it in favor of "suitability for defensive use," which is more than 5rds fired in anger and likely less than 500rds in one engagement, even among a group of a half-dozen civies armed with 'practical rifles' who are hunkered-down on rooftops or barricaded in an alley in an L.A. Riots scenario.

At the level of the 'practical rifle' in civilian hands, there's a limit to how much ammo an individual can carry, and unlike the military there's no guarantee of re-supply once the shooting starts. But regardless, once the shooting does start, your very 'practical rifle' had better be up to it. It's no longer just Fudley's hunter.

And then there is the matter of what can work vs. what is likely to work best.

No debate there. But you've needlessly brought up a strawman in the form of a 'distinction without a difference' where the 'practical/all-around rifle' is concerned. The endgame of the 'practical rifle' isn't that it's 'likely the best, or 'likely to work best' for a particular use, but that's it's the best among competing choices for a variety of uses (multi-tasking) for which you would choose a centerfire rifle.

Your perspective for what would be a 'practical/all-around rifle' might grow more accurate if you image a situation where by law you could only own one centerfire rifle that would have to 'do it all.' Think of it that way.

If my idea of sustained defensive use is a belt fed HMG and long term field conditions is a year in the mud of Flanders fields with zero cleaning, few single rifles will meet that, in whole or part.

Red-herrings that aren't relevant to civilian situations. :rolleyes:

You're talking about a military context and military engagements years long, whereas the 'practical rifle' concept is about the civilian context and what 'all-round' centerfire solution will work across a variety of scenarios. Hunting is one. Defensive use is another.

Non-autoloader exceptions might include the Madsen M47 mentioned in an earlier post, or the various U.S. Mil bolt guns.
What, no love for the SMLE???

Do like the SMLE!

And certainly in the 'practical bolt gun' category, it's a great choice if you can readily source .303 Brit ammo or the components.
 
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