Practical Accuracy

As my grandfather used to say, "I can shoot a penny at a mile, if you give me enough shots"...

I think the guns have gotten much better for a more fair price and the off the shelf ammo is amazing {the right stuff}, so now guys can shoot better...

You can get a Savage palma 12 http://www.savagearms.com/firearms/model/12PALMA for $1500, a Ken Farrel scope rail and a Konus M30 scope for another $400, then grab a couple boxes of HSM 168 grain match ammo http://thehuntingshack.com/ , spend an after noon getting it dialed in and shoot better than some of the guys shooting for 3 decades one day ONE!!!!

This is a fact, a friend of mine that NEVER shot a rifle in his life and on day one was shooting better than my other buddy who has been shooting for 30 years!!! I am going to start a topic about in a bit, its a funny story...

SO I think accuracy has more to do with the equipment now, than it ever did, sure there were awesome guns available a while back but they weren't affordable and I never seen ammo capable of what the stuff we can buy now is...
 
You can get a Savage palma 12 http://www.savagearms.com/firearms/model/12PALMA for $1500, a Ken Farrel scope rail and a Konus M30 scope for another $400, then grab a couple boxes of HSM 168 grain match ammo http://thehuntingshack.com/ , spend an after noon getting it dialed in and shoot better than some of the guys shooting for 3 decades one day ONE!!!!

This is a fact, a friend of mine that NEVER shot a rifle in his life and on day one was shooting better than my other buddy who has been shooting for 30 years!!! I am going to start a topic about in a bit, its a funny story...
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Could your new shooter friend do anything practical (say, given 10 seconds, 1 round, and nothing but himself, a sling, and flat ground to rest the gun on, cleanly drop a buck at 300 yards with that Savage rig you referenced above and his one day of experience? How about hit a moving target?

The thread is about practical accuracy, not the intrinsic accurracy of specialized modern longrange papergaming equipment ..... Palma rifles are not very practical for much else.

It's the Indian, not the arrow, that makes the shot.

Given equal equipment, the person that is more familiar with his equipment will generally outshoot the people that are not. If both your new shooter friend and the guy with 30 years of shooting had the same equipment, and both were new to the long range game, then I'd suspect that the 30 year veteran was less teachable than the newb, and had bad habits to overcome that the new guy did not ....
 
Bart B. said:
And very precisely, too.
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Yes, I had that in there originally, but edited it out because I thought it redundant. :cool:

jehu said:
Practical Accuracy should never be acceptable! Always strive for better, IMO. Practical Accuracy leaves less room for shooters mistakes!
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I don't think "practical accuracy" is an implicit excuse for poor marksmanship. Rather, as jimbob86 just pointed out, it means being able to also perform well when not tied to a bench.
 
Until we all use the same objectives, conditions and standards (OC&S) for practical accuracy, practical accuracy is the same as practical cars, religion, politics, food and who we each like to be with. Whatever makes us feel the best meeting our OC&Ses is the the one we pick. It's a personal issue. We can all be different and we are.

Is there a difference between setting a 100 yard benchrest record and stopping a charging Cape buffalo at 50? A .500 Nitro Express double rifle does great in one situation but a 6PPC of the same weight does great in the other. I don't think both need to be shot to the same level of precision. Yet a 2 MOA difference in their accuracy is very practical.
 
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My opinion is a Rifle should shoot 1/4 to 1/2 at 100 yds on a sand bag and shooting bench . Any lack of accuracy in the field off hand or leaning aginst a tree is my fault .
 
Does that apply to a 12-pound 50 caliber double rifle I mentioned earlier? Or a 9-pound .378 Wby Mag?

And for how many shots?
 
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Ok see your point I had what I like to shoot in mind like a Remington 700 .300 Win Mag tac . Say 5 round group . Or a Ruger M77 25-06 5 round group . They should shoot a tight group with a good rest on a bench AT 100 yards then in the field if I mis a shot I could not blame the rifle as it has shown what it can do so it must be the shooter . But while reading your previous post on sighting in a rifle while standing with one shot I must have missed the point as that doesn't seem practical .
 
This has been a good discussion, with many good points made by all.

To sum up many of the thoughts and add a bit, I submit that practical accuracy may be summed up by saying it's a combination of weapon, ammo and shooter ability that allows perhaps, 90% confidence that the shot can be made under the prevalent conditions, whether hunting, plinking, target shooting, or defense, etc..

The choices we make in attempting the shot include not shooting and getting a better position for a higher probability shot. Getting closer, getting a more stable shooting position, waiting for game to present a better angle, adjusting the scope power, getting a better range estimate/measurement, checking the ballistic table taped to your stock, or in a defense situation, getting to cover.

In non-critical situations, like plinking, or practice, we can often learn from a missed shot. That's why we call it practice.
 
Psalm7, regarding my earlier post on sighting in with one shot standing.

It's been my experience and that of observing others, a zero obtained holding a rifle atop something on a benchtop will have different sight settings for one obtained by shooting offhand/standing without artifical support and having bullets strike where each shot is called. Our differences between benchrest and standing/offhand were typically 1 to 2 MOA to the right of the offhand/standing zero. It's all caused by how much our bodies twist from recoil before the bullet exits the barrel.

When one becomes a good shot using proper offhand/standing shooting skills and has accurate hardware, they'll easily see the difference. They call their shots using metallic sights within 1/2 MOA of where they strike, 1/4 MOA with a scope. If the shot strikes 1 MOA left of where it was called, moving the sight 1 MOA to the right will make the next shot strike the call point very closely. A second shot will prove it, even if it's called 4 MOA away from the first one.

The first objective in getting a zero is having the rifle shoot bullets to the point they're aimed at. It doesn't matter how big the area is they land in. After that's done, then your second objective it to make the rifle aimed as close as possible to where you want the bullet to hit when it fires. If the rifle doesn't shoot to where it's aimed, you'll never learn good marksmanship skills because the "feedback" from where the bullet hole is isn't where it was aimed when the rifle was fired.

I had one heck of a time with a teenager on a Junior Rifle Team in a match. He was shooting 600 yards with his M1A match rifle. He called his first shot at 2 o'clock in the 9 ring and the bullet struck the 10-ring at 9 o'clock. I said "Right 6 clicks and up a minute; shoot." He looked at me and said "Why, the bullet's a little left in the 10-ring. Shouldn't I go a click or two right?" I said the bullet didn't go where he aimed it and that's our job in this team match. So he made the correction and shot his second shot; called 6 o'clock in the 10 ring. Bullet went just off the X ring at 6 o'clock. I asked him if he liked shooting bullets where the sights were and he replied, "Oh, I understand now. Does it matter if I call a shot in the 9 ring and it's a 9 instead of a 10?" I replied, "Not as far as your sights are, but it does help me know where your rifle pointed when it fired. Now I can help you shoot better scores because your rifle shoots where it's pointed. That was years ago. He later ended up a top ranked member of the US Army Rifle Team and holds some National records.
 
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I agree with Bart, to some degree, but there aren't many shooters who will be able to discern a difference between benchrested zero and offhand zero.

If a person knows how to sight-in from a bench for a rifle to be used from various field positions, or for informal target shooting, the POI differences between offhand and rested shots will usually be minimal.

The variation in field POI is much more dependent on distance (trajectory related) and wind variations, at least that's my observation.

I think there may be more of a difference between using a sling and not, since it can change the rifle's harmonics, compared with the difference between offhand without sling and soft front rest. I don't have any empirical evidence, just practical experience shooting lots of rifles and sighting-in customers rifles.

It's also disconcerting to see someone who should know better using a front rest to support the barrel, not the forend. Just when you thought you've seen everything...try going to the Daytona public range. All the benches are fastened together, and attached to roof support posts. Jumpin' crosshairs! ;)
 
I agree with Bart, to some degree, but there aren't many shooters who will be able to discern a difference between benchrested zero and offhand zero.
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Ummm... actually I think we might notice if we are paying attention. Until I read this thread today, I did not know that "...differences between benchrest and standing/offhand were typically 1 to 2 MOA to the right of the offhand/standing zero. It's all caused by how much our bodies twist from recoil before the bullet exits the barrel.... " Thank you Bart.

But two weeks ago I was with all my shooting buddies. We were all shooting from field positions, mostly kneeling and sitting, but some offhand. I was shooting a little to the right, about an inch at 100 yards. Everyone else was shooting a little to the right as well... A variety of rifles ranging from bolt 243, 308, 270, 7mag, to AR-15's and a 40 year old browning automatic in 30-06. All the same result, shots were grouping a little to the right. Our groups weren't that small, but with dozens of holes, the trend was clear. We had no explanation... but now I do: I am certain we all sighted in our scopes at the bench. The only reason we took note of this is that we all experienced it at the same time.

I can't wait to tell them.

Jim
 
If rifle is not on paper I will move up to around 30 yards standing off hand and see where its hitting . When I get centered I move back to a bench and zero the rifle .
 
btmj, it's been my observations that zeros obtained with hand held rifles shot from a bench will shoot to the left in field, unsupported positions for right handed shooters. If your friends' rifles shot to the right from benched zeros, I think the reason's due to something else. Trigger finger placement on the trigger lever, hand grip positon on the stock's pistol grip, or placement of the rifle butt plate in the shoulder.

The main issue is, there is a difference.
 
On top of all you have mentioned Bart, my observation is that different stock configurations have an effect also, and I believe that when shooters practice too much bench and not enough of the unsupported positions they develope some cheekweld and trigger grip issues when firing unsupported..,Having said that, when Im in the field and attempting and offhand shot I catch myself wanting to grip and regrip the pistol grip,almost exactly like I do off of bench.....and a footnote: I like to spend the last day of hunting firing from different positions, unless there is hunters still hunting....I find a lot about myself going through some different positions.
When I pick up a rifle,its usually a cheaper used synthetic stocked bolt action, and I work on it and try to afford the best optics and bases rings and such, pick a Hunting style bullet I want to try, develope load and spend range time testing,,,just like anybody, except I almost never quit testing until bullet holes touching at one hundred yds, seems like for me and my skill set, this is a good start for.my hunting rifles.
I believe the better they shoot at the range, the better they may help cover my misgivingsbin the field, and usually its because of the hastiness of a chance with the game I'm pursuing. ,,
BUT when I choose a different rifle to hunt with, I seem to spend the first thirty minutes holding and practicing my grip and trigger engagement..until it gets comfortable...
I wish I could go to the range with you or the captain once in awhile for a swift kick in the pants when I need it..
 
My cartridges tend to be relatively high velocity and/or low recoil. That may be why I don't notice POI differences between resting and offhand.

It seems reasonable that, if there were differences between bench and offhand POIs, they would be more noticeable with heavier-recoiling, perhaps lower velocity rounds.
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As a sidelight, many shooters don't realize that, due to precession, bullets don't travel in only vertical drop, but spiral, as well. Tests having several targets perfectly aligned, show that over several hundred yards, bullet impacts from each target, plotted on one sheet, revealed the spiral. Spiral direction depends on whether the barrel is either left or right twist.
 
Heavier recoilling rounds do make a difference in zeros obtained from benched or offhand shooting. That's why builders of large bore double rifles test and adjust the toed in barrel angles of those two barrels so they both hit point of aim at 50 yards or whatever short range the customer asked for. This "regulating" process is never done from a bench; the bullets would move the barrels much more from benched positions than from standing. One mans standing position and 11 pound (or heavier) rifle holding doesn't vary much from anothers when shooting those behemoth busters. Their breech centers are often over an inch apart, but the bore axes cross at 10 to 20 yards down range. That point's a couple inches to the left of the line of sight for a right handed shooter. Recoil twists the shooter's body quite a bit while 500 to 900 grain bullets get pushed down the barrel then out at 2200 fps when the bore axis is aligned with the aiming point. Like handgun sights, their front sight's higher above the bore axis than the rear sight.
 
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Bart B., I guess I have never seen a good marksman shooting off hand. I have never seen a .5 moa group shot off hand, ever, at any distance, with any gun.
 
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