Art Eatman
Staff in Memoriam
A guy with a two-MOA rifle who practices under field conditions with adversity in mind is gonna do better than the 1/2-MOA guy who sights in and calls it "ready to go hunting".
2¢
Art
2¢
Art
Practical Accuracy for a Hunting Rifle?
- Thread starter Fremmer
- Start date
I recently purchased a Mossberg ATR 100 in .270 that will shoot factory ammo (Federal Fusion 130 grain bullets) into 1.5" or so off the bench for 5 shots. I'm quite happy with that accuracy, since this rifle is only for hunting and not benchrest competitions.
I mounted a Leupold Vari-X III 3.5-10 on it that I already had sitting around and I can now hit paper plates quickly and unsupported easily out past the distances I will be hunting. All my shooting with the rifle has been with the scope on 6x, since that is what I have it set on while hunting.
Will I be happy if, after I buy dies and start reloading for it, my groups shrink to sub-MOA? Sure I will. Would that group size shrinkage really matter to my hunting? Nope.
Shootingatdeerwith8MOAvitalsinMinnesota
I mounted a Leupold Vari-X III 3.5-10 on it that I already had sitting around and I can now hit paper plates quickly and unsupported easily out past the distances I will be hunting. All my shooting with the rifle has been with the scope on 6x, since that is what I have it set on while hunting.
Will I be happy if, after I buy dies and start reloading for it, my groups shrink to sub-MOA? Sure I will. Would that group size shrinkage really matter to my hunting? Nope.
Shootingatdeerwith8MOAvitalsinMinnesota
Sub-MOA on a bench means the rifle will shoot. Sight in 3" high at 100 yards with the ammo you intend to use for hunting. Then practice off hand, at 100 yards, shooting at a 9" pie plate until you can hit it every time. When you can, you're ready to hunt. Just remember that when hunting you should use any available rest(no stock on a bare rock or log if you can avoid it, though) and only shoot off hand when you absolutely have to.
Now, stand up and hold your arm out from the shoulder. Try and hold your hand still. You can't, can you? Hunting accuracy is about controlling your own wobble. Upper body tone will help too.
Now, stand up and hold your arm out from the shoulder. Try and hold your hand still. You can't, can you? Hunting accuracy is about controlling your own wobble. Upper body tone will help too.
Jack O'Conner
New member
Calculating group size is a something I've been thinking about for a couple days.
Let's say a rifle shoots its first bullet to the right of center 1 inch and second bullet 1 inch left of center. Next 3 shots hit inside these bounds with a couple holes touching each other. We'd call this a 2 inch group. But at any given shot, this rifle placed a bullet within 1 inch of the center of the aim point.
This grouping describes our old Marlin 30-30 carbine affectionately named Meatmaker. On any given day or time it can be relied on to place its hard hitting flatnose bullets into an approximate 2 inch circle at 100 yards. Certainly not a target rifle but Marlin designed it for hunting the forests and foothills. For these conditions, a 2 inch group is entirely satisfactory.
Let's say the target is a prairie dog at 225 yards. Now we need a rifle which can place 5 shots into a 1 inch or smaller circle at 100 yards. Using the same calculations, this means the rifle must place its bullets within .5 inch of each other each and every shot.
Lets say the target is a full grown bull elk at 225 yards. Now we need a rifle which can place 5 shots into a 3 to 4 inch or smaller circle at 100 yards. Using the same calculations, this means the rifle must place its bullets within 1.5 to 2 inches of each other each and every shot. This would describe most off the shelf hunting rifles that are fired once a year by so-called average hunters.
Jack
Let's say a rifle shoots its first bullet to the right of center 1 inch and second bullet 1 inch left of center. Next 3 shots hit inside these bounds with a couple holes touching each other. We'd call this a 2 inch group. But at any given shot, this rifle placed a bullet within 1 inch of the center of the aim point.
This grouping describes our old Marlin 30-30 carbine affectionately named Meatmaker. On any given day or time it can be relied on to place its hard hitting flatnose bullets into an approximate 2 inch circle at 100 yards. Certainly not a target rifle but Marlin designed it for hunting the forests and foothills. For these conditions, a 2 inch group is entirely satisfactory.
Let's say the target is a prairie dog at 225 yards. Now we need a rifle which can place 5 shots into a 1 inch or smaller circle at 100 yards. Using the same calculations, this means the rifle must place its bullets within .5 inch of each other each and every shot.
Lets say the target is a full grown bull elk at 225 yards. Now we need a rifle which can place 5 shots into a 3 to 4 inch or smaller circle at 100 yards. Using the same calculations, this means the rifle must place its bullets within 1.5 to 2 inches of each other each and every shot. This would describe most off the shelf hunting rifles that are fired once a year by so-called average hunters.
Jack
Interesting thread. Speaking for myself, I would rather have a rifle that is consistantly a 1.5" grouper that one that is an inconsistant .375" grouper.
Case in point. I have a very nice FN Mauser that was built into a very accurate 30-06 sporter. Groups ran in the .375" range when I did my part using my handloads. Only one problem. With the rifle sighted in 3" high at 100 yards, when the barrel cooled the next very tight groups might be 6" off to one side or the other. Figuring it was the scope, I tried another. Same thing. After the barrel cooled, it shot someplace else. The gun maker rebedded this rifle three times, to no avail. When I moved to Arizona, I rebedded it twice myself. Nothing seemed to work. Groups were alway very small, but the point of impact constantly changed. I got a good deal on a McMillan synthetic stock and glass bedded the rifle into it. The rifle is still quite accurate, but now groups run from .75" to 1.25", and the point of aim is consistant.
Regarding practice for the hunt. The area I usually try for to hunt elk has some areas of open spaces that are unbelievably large. Once the shooting starts on opening day, the elk move out into the middle of these huge meadows, well out of range of most rifles. Seriously, the meadow where I shot my last elk is about two miles wide and maybe seven miles long. Those elk can see you coming from a long way off. My shot was at 530 yards, laser measured. It was an easy shot really. early in the morningn, no wind as the inversion hadn't broken yet, perfect conditons. I made the shot from a comfortable sitting position with a .300 Win. mag. and a 200 gr. Speer Hot-core. The Cow elk dropped on the spot.
So, why was this shot so easy? Lots of practice. I started about three month before the hunt shooting at targets from 100 to 500 meters. The 100 meter shots were done offhand and sitting. the longer shots fron kneeling and sitting. I consider myself fortunate that my range has a silhouette range to 500 meters. I usually would shoot something else from the bench, but then before quitting for the day, I'd fire at least one group from field postions ay one of the various ranges. Maybe 100 meters one day and 400 meters the next time. Or 500, depending on myframe of mind and how tired I might be from the other shooting. The more tired, the farther out I'd shoot. It paid off very well that day in that open meadow when I got my elk.
Paul B.
Case in point. I have a very nice FN Mauser that was built into a very accurate 30-06 sporter. Groups ran in the .375" range when I did my part using my handloads. Only one problem. With the rifle sighted in 3" high at 100 yards, when the barrel cooled the next very tight groups might be 6" off to one side or the other. Figuring it was the scope, I tried another. Same thing. After the barrel cooled, it shot someplace else. The gun maker rebedded this rifle three times, to no avail. When I moved to Arizona, I rebedded it twice myself. Nothing seemed to work. Groups were alway very small, but the point of impact constantly changed. I got a good deal on a McMillan synthetic stock and glass bedded the rifle into it. The rifle is still quite accurate, but now groups run from .75" to 1.25", and the point of aim is consistant.
Regarding practice for the hunt. The area I usually try for to hunt elk has some areas of open spaces that are unbelievably large. Once the shooting starts on opening day, the elk move out into the middle of these huge meadows, well out of range of most rifles. Seriously, the meadow where I shot my last elk is about two miles wide and maybe seven miles long. Those elk can see you coming from a long way off. My shot was at 530 yards, laser measured. It was an easy shot really. early in the morningn, no wind as the inversion hadn't broken yet, perfect conditons. I made the shot from a comfortable sitting position with a .300 Win. mag. and a 200 gr. Speer Hot-core. The Cow elk dropped on the spot.
So, why was this shot so easy? Lots of practice. I started about three month before the hunt shooting at targets from 100 to 500 meters. The 100 meter shots were done offhand and sitting. the longer shots fron kneeling and sitting. I consider myself fortunate that my range has a silhouette range to 500 meters. I usually would shoot something else from the bench, but then before quitting for the day, I'd fire at least one group from field postions ay one of the various ranges. Maybe 100 meters one day and 400 meters the next time. Or 500, depending on myframe of mind and how tired I might be from the other shooting. The more tired, the farther out I'd shoot. It paid off very well that day in that open meadow when I got my elk.
Paul B.
I completely agree with most here. Consistency is more important than absolute group size. The standard I use, for myself, is.... if I can place all shots within a 6" circle at 100 yards.... good enough...especially since I hunt with iron sights....and only out to about 150 yards, maximum.
The limits of hunter and gun.
I think every hunter should have first most and foremost on his mind that he has the personal responsibility to know that the shot he fires is going to hit his game in an area which give swift, humane kill. That said, a sub MOA would seem to be very important to an individual taking a 350 yard shot. But moreover, it is not required for an individual to enjoy hunting and to ethically take game. There are hunters who should never attempt a 350 yard shot, either because the gun or the hunter's own skills limit the probably of hitting the vitals somewhere along the lines of a crap shoot.
I have passed on shots because i felt they where beyond my ability to complete successfully. Even so, I still was able to bag most of the game after rewarding stalks. And isn't that what hunting is all about?
I think every hunter should have first most and foremost on his mind that he has the personal responsibility to know that the shot he fires is going to hit his game in an area which give swift, humane kill. That said, a sub MOA would seem to be very important to an individual taking a 350 yard shot. But moreover, it is not required for an individual to enjoy hunting and to ethically take game. There are hunters who should never attempt a 350 yard shot, either because the gun or the hunter's own skills limit the probably of hitting the vitals somewhere along the lines of a crap shoot.
I have passed on shots because i felt they where beyond my ability to complete successfully. Even so, I still was able to bag most of the game after rewarding stalks. And isn't that what hunting is all about?
AJ Peacock
New member
Awesome accuracy is a 'nice to have'.
A 1/2 MOA rifle enables expert marksmen to take/make shots that would be questionable with less accurate rifles. Most posters have made this case for longer (300yd+) shots. However, I think it can be important in other cases. I'll give a couple examples.
I'm sitting on a brushy/wooded hillside watching the opposite hillside (200yds or so), when I see movement on my side of the hill about 100 yards through the trees/brush. With my Bino's, I see that its a deer walking up the hill. I raise my rifle and can just see it silouhetting up the hillside. Watching ahead of the deer, I see a small opening and as the deer goes through the opening, I see its a nice little 4x4 whitetail. I decide that the next opening I'm going to shoot. I pick an opening about a foot wide and just as the deer gets to the opening, it stops and starts looking around. The only thing I can see other than the horns, is an apple sized opening at the base of the ear. I take a breath, let half out and squeeze.
Without the faith in that rifle (Rem 700/7mm) I wouldn't/couldn't have made that shot. My hunting buddies couldn't believe I made that shot, even though it was only around 100yds.
Second example. Hunting Mule deer, last day of season and my friend Dennis had the only unfilled tag. We walk up on a group of deer and one of them is a nice 26" buck. Unfortunately he is standing directly behind a doe. We can only see his head and about 4 " of his neck. The distance is around 200yds and we have no rest. Dennis is one of the best offhand shooters I've every been around, I whisper to him to take the buck before he runs. Dennis says, "I can't see the vitals". I say "shoot him at the base of the ear". Dennis clicks the safety off and a second later, a bullet from his (Rem 700/7mm) flies between the does ears (3" over her head) and takes the buck at the base of the ear. If I didn't know how Dennis could shoot and that his rifle was capable of 1" groups at 200yds, I wouldn't have had him take the shot.
Neither of these shots was Long, but was only capable with an expert shooter and an extremely accurate rifle.
AJ
A 1/2 MOA rifle enables expert marksmen to take/make shots that would be questionable with less accurate rifles. Most posters have made this case for longer (300yd+) shots. However, I think it can be important in other cases. I'll give a couple examples.
I'm sitting on a brushy/wooded hillside watching the opposite hillside (200yds or so), when I see movement on my side of the hill about 100 yards through the trees/brush. With my Bino's, I see that its a deer walking up the hill. I raise my rifle and can just see it silouhetting up the hillside. Watching ahead of the deer, I see a small opening and as the deer goes through the opening, I see its a nice little 4x4 whitetail. I decide that the next opening I'm going to shoot. I pick an opening about a foot wide and just as the deer gets to the opening, it stops and starts looking around. The only thing I can see other than the horns, is an apple sized opening at the base of the ear. I take a breath, let half out and squeeze.
Without the faith in that rifle (Rem 700/7mm) I wouldn't/couldn't have made that shot. My hunting buddies couldn't believe I made that shot, even though it was only around 100yds.
Second example. Hunting Mule deer, last day of season and my friend Dennis had the only unfilled tag. We walk up on a group of deer and one of them is a nice 26" buck. Unfortunately he is standing directly behind a doe. We can only see his head and about 4 " of his neck. The distance is around 200yds and we have no rest. Dennis is one of the best offhand shooters I've every been around, I whisper to him to take the buck before he runs. Dennis says, "I can't see the vitals". I say "shoot him at the base of the ear". Dennis clicks the safety off and a second later, a bullet from his (Rem 700/7mm) flies between the does ears (3" over her head) and takes the buck at the base of the ear. If I didn't know how Dennis could shoot and that his rifle was capable of 1" groups at 200yds, I wouldn't have had him take the shot.
Neither of these shots was Long, but was only capable with an expert shooter and an extremely accurate rifle.
AJ
In long range hunting the faith in the rifle/bullet/hunter combo is the most important thing...Would you pass up a trophy of a lifetime because it was just a little farther Away than usual?
My uncle's 100 year old Winchester 94 .30 WCF will group about 2½ to 3" at 100 yards, which is fine as in the terrain he hunts, he has never made a shot more than 90 yards.
In benchrest/target you can put five (5) bullets into one whole and lose because of score or grouping and that would be far greater than what is necessary in the typical hunting rifle.
So long as the groups are smaller then the vital area you are shooting at, you'll probably make the kill--sorry, harvest the consumable--has been said before and is correct.
Idealy, you need ¼ to ½ MOA for making head shots on humans or prairie rodents, ½ to ¾ MOA on predators, ¾ to 1 MOA for sheep, goats & human torso, 1 to 1½ MOA for deer and bear, 1½ to 2 MOA for moose or elk.
Basic rule of thumb: the closer to the target the larger the group can be.
The furthur away the smaller the group has to be.
wvrifleman
New member
recently purchased a Mossberg ATR 100 in .270 that will shoot factory ammo (Federal Fusion 130 grain bullets) into 1.5" or so off the bench for 5 shots. I'm quite happy with that accuracy, since this rifle is only for hunting and not benchrest competitions.
I agree with goalie on this.Also have a mossberg in .270.i'm using remington 130 gr core-loks with a BSA contender 6x24. 1" to 1.5" moa off the bench and have 2 bucks in 1st three days of wv whitetail season with it so far.i'll put a pic or 2 of my 11 point on here as soon as i get them.
I agree with goalie on this.Also have a mossberg in .270.i'm using remington 130 gr core-loks with a BSA contender 6x24. 1" to 1.5" moa off the bench and have 2 bucks in 1st three days of wv whitetail season with it so far.i'll put a pic or 2 of my 11 point on here as soon as i get them.