Powder Storage

Bucksnort1

New member
I did some research on the Alliant and Hodgdon sites looking for minimum and maximum storage temperatures for powder. Neither gave specifics, only to store in a cool dry place. Later this summer, I will move to near Phoenix, AZ. My powder will be stored in an un-insulated garage in an area set aside for reloading. There will be an evaporative cooler in this area which will be used only in the hot summers. I don't know if I will run it continuously. My guess is the garage will be hot but not at an unsafe level and as long as the powder is out of direct sunlight, which it will be, there probably won't be a problem.

Any thoughts on temperatures, mostly maximum? I don't think dryness or winters will be an issue.
 
I come from a pretty similar climate, and from the time I was about 8 years old, my dad kept his powder in a metal cabinet in a non climate controlled garage. Most summers the temp in there would peak around 120 for at least a few days. I never witnessed any degradation in any of his powders in that 25ish years. In fact, I am still occasionally using powders I got from him that are older than that. As for hummidity, you should be fine in the desert even with a swamp cooler running. That shouldn't spike the humidity too much except when you are having monsoon weather.... and even then... it will be so miserable on days like that you will not be in your garage reloading and the humidity will not be e not be enough to impact closed containers.

I would recommend you try to store your powder in an insulated, but not air tight container (I use a government fireproof filing cabinet) the mass of the cabinet helps protect the powder from temperature spikes, and that helps preserve the powder.
 
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I have always understood that storing modern smokeless powder in a metal container / metal cabinet is a very bad idea. Wood being the best. A metal container will allow the pressure of the rapidly burning powder to rise to levels of explosion. A wood container / cabinet will allow pressure to escape before reaching the level of explosion.
 
It was sold in metal cans until plastic became more economical. Tests done (don't do this at home; the tests were controlled) putting cans of smokeless powder on open flames always resulted in the gas opening the cans at the seam and the powder flaring off. Only black powder made a bomb. In a heavy metal container, if it is the explosion-proof type, its lid will open before pressure reaches bursting levels.

As near as I can tell, if you keep powder bone dry in a freezer it will generally outlive you and your grandchildren. The warmer it gets, the faster it deteriorates. There are some military charts you can find, but IIRC, double base spherical powder can lose deterrents or stabilizer or both after about 18 months at 140°F. If we assume the breakdown rate doubles every 18°F, then the 20 year life the military gives it in stockpiles would occur at about 73°F. It would follow you would get 10 years at 91°F and 5 years at 109°F. Single-base stick powders last about 2¼ times longer, so 45, 22½, and 11¼ years at those three temperatures. And mind you, that would be 24 hours a day at those temperatures. Nights are normally cooler. The military uses munitions bunkers that are pretty massive and are recessed into the ground, so I doubt they see much temperature swing.

There are compound breakdown energy threshold problems with that simple 18°F doubling model, but it's probably reasonable to keep an extra close eye on powders nearing those ages if it kept at those temperatures.

There is another problem that the military knows their powder is fresh when they buy it, but you don't. If a lot of bulk powder does not fall within the burn rate limits set by the distributor for the canister grade version sold to handloaders, the powder company will blend the new bulk lot with older, held back bulk lots that turned out to burn faster or slower than usual, in order to bring the net burn rate into canister grade tolerance. This is done because handloaders work with recipes in manuals. Ammunition factories own pressure test equipment and use it to adjust the bulk grade powder charge to compensate for burn rate error in a particular lot, but that's more change than load manual practices can be counted on to cover.

So, without knowing whether your lot needed blending or not, and, if it did, how old the lot blended in was, you don't know how much life it has compared to fresh bulk powder like the military normally uses. There was a recall by Vihtavuori of some N140 that was breaking down prematurely (see what fumes from a sample I had did to the lid of the container after about 10 years; the powder was a solid mass inside). Around 2000 there was a lot of IMR4350 that was going bad on people after just three to five years. So this stuff happens occasionally, making ammo for long term storage from canister grade powders an unreliable proposition. If you intend to do that, I would store some of the unloaded powder with it so you can check its condition before shooting up the loaded stuff.

Learn to recognize deteriorating powder by smell and appearance. Check your powder for smell and by eyeball for red dust before reloading with it as a matter of routine, and watch for pressure signs or velocity increases in loads that used to be fine with that same quantity of that same lot of powder.

A lot of people load ammo to store for Armageddon scenarios, but I recommend they cycle through it steadily by shooting the oldest and then replacing it with fresher loads over time. FIFO (first in, first out) storage.

N140%20Deterioration%20%20001_zpsyshx8nxe.jpg
 
Flashhole,

You have given me a good idea. I will buy one of those small fridges like you see in an office, maybe two if necessary. I can set the inside temp to be the warmest possible and if that's too cold, I could wedge the door open a couple of inches or so. If there is ignition, the door would simply open from pressure. If there is enough room, I could do as you suggest and keep beer in it.

On another forum, someone suggested I store it inside the house, which is a good idea but I don't know if I can sneak this one by my wife. I've seen the floor plan for the new house and some photos of the model home so I don't really know if there are any good storage areas.
 
Too HOT is a problem


Too COLD is not... cold is your friend. It not only slows the chemical decomposition process.. it also limits humidity.
 
I think people over think powder storage from a life spam perspective (and under think it from a safety perspective). I store my powder on the top shelf in an upstairs closet, it's cool in the winter, and might get to 80 in the summer. I've never had an issue even with my older stuff. Even kept at 90 degrees 24X7, I/m betting that 10 years later none of us would know the difference. Dont worry about it as long as it' reasonably roomish temp (60 to 90 degrees). You'll use it before it goes bad....or be in your final resting spot.
 
Mike38 wrote:
I have always understood that storing modern smokeless powder in a metal container / metal cabinet is a very bad idea. Wood being the best. A metal container will allow the pressure of the rapidly burning powder to rise to levels of explosion. A wood container / cabinet will allow pressure to escape before reaching the level of explosion.

I guess that I didn't word that correctly.

Powder should be stored in it's original containers as provided by the manufacturer. If can(s) of powder are placed inside another container such as a cabinet, the cabinet should be constructed as to allow expanding gases from the burning powder to escape and not build up pressure. Metal safes, fire resistant filing cabinets, and the like are a bad idea. Wooden cabinets will "open up" not allowing the pressures to build up.
 
I would worry more about possible condensation in a freezer than I would about a few weeks of hotter weather a year. I'm not trying to store my powder 30+ years...my oldest is maybe 10 years. Granted I don't live in a hot climate either.
 
Mike, you're probably right about my filing cabinet... I only mention it because of the insulation value. I would rather have a heavy wood box, but it is the best thing I have for now to protect my powder from humidity and heat. I'll take my chances on it until I get something better for it.
 
My powder is just stored in wooden cabinets in the house basement. Temp stays cool year around. Humidity is not a problem here.
 
The most basic general rules for power and primer storage:
Stable temperature. (Powder in particular.)
Stable humidity. (Primers in particular.)
 
The lifetime of gunpowder is unpredictable, heat reduces the lifetime of gunpowder exponentially.

These are some data points on temperature and gunpowder lifetime:

UN manual on ammunition inspection. See section 7.3.

Surveillance and in-service proof - the United Nations

http://www.un.org/disarmament/conva...20-Surveillance_and_In-Service Proof(V.1).pdf




There is almost no data on the internet because all that was ever needed to be known about gunpowder aging was determined well before WW2. However ball powders did come out at the end of WW2 and I was able to find this data showing that gunpowder at the end of its lifetime will pressure spike. Heat is used to accelerate the age of gunpowder, so what you are seeing is in fact because of “age”, not heat, but it took heat to age the powder quickly. The IMR is a single based and the WC is a double based ball powder.

INVESTIGATION OF THE BALLISTIC AND CHEMICAL STABILITY OF 7.62MM AMMUNITION LOADED WITH BALL AND IMR PROPELLANT

Frankfort Arsenal 1962

3. Effects of Accelerated Storage Propellant and Primer Performance

To determine the effect of accelerated isothermal storage upon propellant and primer performance, sixty cartridges from each of lots E (WC 846) and G (R 1475) were removed from 150F storage after 26 and 42 weeks, respectively. The bullets were then removed from half the cartridges of each lot and from an equal number of each lot previously stored at 70F. The propellants were then interchanged, the bullets re-inserted, and the cases recrimped. Thus, four variations of stored components were obtained with each lot.

Chamber pressures yielded by ammunition incorporating these four variations were as follows. These values represent averages of 20 firings.





Pressurevariationsduetostoragetempertures-1.jpg



ROLE OF DIPHENYLAMINE AS A STABILIZER IN PROPELLANTS;ANALYTICAL CHEMISTRY OF IPHENYLAMINE IN PROPELLANTS

Nitrocellulose-base propellants are essentially unstable materials that decompose on aging with the evolution of oxides of nitrogen. The decomposition is autocatalytic and can lead to failure of the ammunition or disastrous explosions.

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/783499.pdf
 
Another thing to consider, even with the outrageous summer temperature in Phoenix, a garage, especially one made of cement block, is probably going to be much cooler than what's happening outside.
 
Slamfire:

This topic gets a bits over my head when it starts getting very technical . Do you or anybody in this thread have a general list of powders that would/should store better then others based on the way they are made .

Nitrocellulose-base propellants are essentially unstable materials that decompose on aging with the evolution of oxides of nitrogen.

I've never paid much attention to what my powder bases are that I use most . I have set aside a good amount of powder and now I'm considering changing the types to ones that would/should handle long term storage better then others

Right now I have stored in a cool dry place
IMR - 4895 , 4064 , 4350
H-335
HS-6
Unique
Titegroup

Of those is there any that you guys would or would not suggest to store long term . Those are the general burn rates I plan to store so If there is one in there that may not do well long term . Can you suggest one with the same burn rate that should do better ?

What about the new-ish powders like CFE 223 & pistol , IMR-8208 xbr , Power pro 2000mr . Do powder manufactures make all powders to last the same amount of time-ish ? Or can we expect the newer powders to store better ? I know the question on it's face sounds dumb but I was thinking with all the advancements in additives like less temp sensitive powders , CFE and flash suppressants among other things I'm sure . Have they learned to make a better stabilized longer lasting powder ?
 
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MG,

Just broadly what I said before. The single-base stick powders usually last longest; about 2¼ times longer than double-base spherical. I base this on the British military stockpile life limits of 45 and 20 years, respectively. But this assumes you know how old all the powder in the container is. The blending done to control canister grade burn rates can mean what you buy is older than you think. It also assumes things about conditions. The N140 in the jar I showed apparently had a poor seal to the outside, and despite being single-base stick, it went. THE EXACT SAME LOT in another jar—the powder maker's jar—with a better seal is still good today.

In my cellar, I have part of a lot of 1982 surplus 308 made for South Aftrica by Sellier & Bellot. I don't know how it was kept before I got it in 1993, but by then it already had very erratic performance and pulled bullets revealed some cases with the stick powder looking oily and sticking together. It could be a double-base powder, but I don't know for certain. The ammo is crimped into a deep groove in the bullets, but it's not a good seal, and some bullets can be wiggled with your fingers. In one corner of the original wood crate of 1200 rounds, a number of the cases have corroded through. I've been watching it for educational purposes, but still don't know the cause of the 11 year old ammo being bad already. Was the powder old when they loaded it? Did the South Africans leave it out in the sun or baking in a shed? I don't know.


Buck,

If you keep the stuff either refrigerated or frozen, take the container out of cold storage a day or two ahead of when you need to open the lid. This will let the temperature equalize so you don't get condensation when you do open it.
 
Just broadly what I said before. The single-base stick powders usually last longest; about 2¼ times longer than double-base spherical. I base this on the British military stockpile life limits of 45 and 20 years, respectively.

I am interesting in finding out the British document that gave the stockpile limits. Up to now, I was just relaying a "rule of thumb" that was given to me by an Naval Insensitive Munitions expert.

This topic gets a bits over my head when it starts getting very technical . Do you or anybody in this thread have a general list of powders that would/should store better then others based on the way they are made .

Double based powders are a mixture of nitrocellulose and nitroglycerine. I was told, by the Naval Insensitive Munitions expert, that nitroglycerine attacks the nitrocellulose, breaking it down. Since nitro cellulose is the primary constituent in double based and of course (ignoring the other herbs and spices) the only constituent in single based, single based powders last over double the lifetime of double based.

Nitrocellulose is a high energy compound breaking down to a low energy compound. Any ionic chemical will attack the double bonded NO molecules, and while water is not ionic, it is polar covalent, and acts ionic. Water is ever to prevalent, heck it is in the air, that air exposure is bad. So are things like rust, and, probably a whole bun. Heat is the worst, as only knuckle heads store their gunpowder under water or in rust shaving, and the breakdown of gunpowder follows the Arrhenius equation, and that has temperature in the exponent.

I cannot go into any more granular level than broad based predictions based on propellant class. I don't have data, and I don't think it exists anyway.

You can Google "Insensitive Munitions" and find all sorts of information on this topic.
 
I came across the document by accident some time ago when looking for something else. I looked through my saved files and didn't spot it there.

On the gunboards, a knowledgeable sounding Brit (who else would use "whilst" or spell maximize with an "s" or propellant in the Latin form with an "ent" ending) disagreed with my number for double-base and adding another storage control factor into the equation:

"Poor storage is the root cause of breakdown. Dampness can cause displacement and structure breakdown leading to NG exudation in multi based propellent. Temperature cycling is however the main damaging process. Keeping propellent at a low stable temperature and dry conditions will maximise its life. UK considers 25 years to be the maximum safe age for double or triple base propellent."

So, having no big or regular temperature swings is important in that the nitroglycerin is in a matrix of cells in the powder whose walls are nitrocellulose, and there is likely to be expansion and contraction stressing of those walls with temperature cycling due to the liquid NG and the solid NC not having the same linear coefficient of expansion.

Another saved file segment I came across was this one:

Page 13 (17, by Acrobat count)
TEST REPORT T73-12-1
December 1973

"ROLE OF DIPHENYLAMINE AS A STABILIZER IN PROPELLANTS;
ANALYTICAL CHEMISTRY OF DIPHENYLAMINE IN PROPELLANTS
(A SURVEY REPORT)

"In another report, the National Defense Research Committee,
Division 8 (47), found the same nitro and nitroso derivatives were
formed in FNH and single-base powder as were encountered in double-base
powder. However, they found the overall rate of transformation in
single-base powder was only about one-tenth that in double-base powder
and was even slightly slower in FNH powder."​


Page 15

"A sample of single-base powder which had been stored under normal
magazine conditions for 37 years retained 36% of its original diphenylamine
either as DPA or its nitroso and nitro derivatives (47). About
20% of the original diphenylamine was accounted for as available
diphenylamine."​

I'll keep an eye peeled for the UK document. I know someone there who may be able to help. I give him a shout.
 
Great info guys . Is there a single based pistol powder in the burn rate range for 9mm & 45acp ? Not sure why but I seem to have a hard time finding specific answers to questions like that . I'm likely not using the right terms/wording in my searches .
 
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