Powder measures

So you basically call me a liar?

I own the ChargeMaster, you don't. I have it still sitting here. Want more photos? It ran less than 1 pound of powder. I'm not the only one who had the plastic being chewed up. Search the web.
Click to expand...


Not calling you a liar at all. I'm convinced that's your ChargeMaster, and that's how it looks. Point is, you're making it a point, as if all Chargemasters will end up that way.
While anyone can check the web, for examples like yours, the web will also prove that a vast number don't end up like yours. Never the less, mine has been used thousands of times, many different powders, and still looks shiny clean. I'm I better at maintenance? I don't know.


And yes, Dillon is for mass production. I'm well aware. I have my other machines also. Am I trying to get that exacting precision? Not anymore.
 
603Country said:
Try to calm down, McCarthy. No need to try to thumbtack your opinion on everyone’s forehead. If you need to raise a ruckus, call RCBS and fuss at them.

As for the Chargemaster, I know some serious 1000 yard guys that use them, and all I hear is happy talk. My Lyman electronic works great, though I am aware that accuracy is to 0.1 gr. I’m Ok with that. I do know one guy that loads match ammo commercially, and he uses the super accurate high dollar scale that most of us don’t need.

So...what is the fuss all about anyway? Is it anger at RCBS? Are ya just mad at everyone that doesn’t agree with what you think? Or are ya just mad?
Click to expand...


It is called passion. There's more than just 'on' or 'off', 'happy' or 'mad'. I'm especially passionate when longtime reloaders keep suggesting and pushing mediocre products out of personal brand loyalty over actual experiences with better alternatives, like the suggested Redding 10X, all to a beginner (the OP) who relies on logical and verified feedback.

By the way: I was long done at post #33, but when people come back with nonsense, I might indeed refute said nonsense. Makes sense, doesn't it.
 
CLYA said:
Not calling you a liar at all. I'm convinced that's your ChargeMaster, and that's how it looks. Point is, you're making it a point, as if all Chargemasters will end up that way.
While anyone can check the web, for examples like yours, the web will also prove that a vast number don't end up like yours. Never the less, mine has been used thousands of times, many different powders, and still looks shiny clean. I'm I better at maintenance? I don't know.


And yes, Dillon is for mass production. I'm well aware. I have my other machines also. Am I trying to get that exacting precision? Not anymore.
Click to expand...


And that is the difference here. You are past perfection. Either way, this is well beyond what OP described. He included in his options "push button dispensers" and I obviously wanted to share my experiences, in order to prevent him from making the same.

I don't recall right now what powder I was using back then. Have well over 60 different powders, some are very reactive. It does't change the fact that the plastic being used in the Chargemaster was never intended to withstand nitro / double based gun powders. That's a total design failure right there. Why don't they use at least the same plastic that is being used for the powder containers? Those don't react, even if stored for decades.

The plastic is - as mentioned - not the only problem. As I have shown it is not accurate. Mine is in average +- 0.160gr.

It also over trickles, and then the scale paddles back. This is why so many use the McDonnals straw mod on them, which also speeds up the trickling.
 
All right, we’ll call it ‘passion’. So let’s get back to the OP and his specific need, and let’s go with MY opinion. I would suggest to the OP that he not go with an electronic thrower/trickler like my Lyman or the RCBS jus yet. Start with more basic, and cheaper, gear. And I would not suggest Lee equipment. Start with the solid basic gear, like that Lyman 55 or the comparable units from RCBS, Redding, and others. A balance scale like the RCBS 505 or 1010 would be good.

If, however, the OP wanted to spend some money, I would recommend the RCBS Chargemaster or the Lyman or Hornady equivalent. I know you had a bad experience with the RCBS unit, but there might be info on that issue that you didn’t share. Now, if I was using my Lyman unit, and in the process of using it the powder melted into the plastic, I expect that I’d be so upset that either my head or heart would explode. And I’d be on the phone to Lyman the moment I quit screaming curses and jumping up and down, and i’d expect them to replace the unit. Have you spoken with RCBS, who I know for a fact have a terrific customer service department? In my experience, they are great to talk to and work with.
 
603Country said:
All right, we’ll call it ‘passion’. So let’s get back to the OP and his specific need, and let’s go with MY opinion. I would suggest to the OP that he not go with an electronic thrower/trickler like my Lyman or the RCBS jus yet. Start with more basic, and cheaper, gear. And I would not suggest Lee equipment. Start with the solid basic gear, like that Lyman 55 or the comparable units from RCBS, Redding, and others. A balance scale like the RCBS 505 or 1010 would be good.

If, however, the OP wanted to spend some money, I would recommend the RCBS Chargemaster or the Lyman or Hornady equivalent. I know you had a bad experience with the RCBS unit, but there might be info on that issue that you didn’t share. Now, if I was using my Lyman unit, and in the process of using it the powder melted into the plastic, I expect that I’d be so upset that either my head or heart would explode. And I’d be on the phone to Lyman the moment I quit screaming curses and jumping up and down, and i’d expect them to replace the unit. Have you spoken with RCBS, who I know for a fact have a terrific customer service department? In my experience, they are great to talk to and work with.
Click to expand...


I sent them an email, got a reply with questions, answered the questions but got no response at all, sent a reminder with photos, and never heard back. I assume they didn't care much because I was out of the warranty time frame. Back in the day I had bought a lot of equipment at once, including the Chargemaster, and used my other measures for a while before I even unboxed the RCBS.

I'm well past the point of disappointment. This product doesn't fulfill my minimum requirements for what it is, out of several reasons.

If I'd ever give one of these mainstream dispensers a try again, I would go with the Lyman. That being said, they are also made in China, possibly in the same plant since they share some similarities.

I agree on the beam scale, they are indeed much better than comparable $100 electronic scales.
 
I just communicated with a professional commercial reloader. He has quite a few Chargemasters for his business, and likes them a lot. However, he said that some double based flake powders will, over time (weeks), attack the plastic and be very tough to remove. Single based extruded powders seem to not have that problem.

Probably I’d have the same problem with the Lyman, but I never leave powder in it for more than 3 or 4 days.

Good to know...
 
Hmm. I am under the impression that RCBS has lifetime warranty on all their products.
Does the Chargemaster fall under a different stipulation? Just curious, let's not get riled.
 
603Country said:
I just communicated with a professional commercial reloader. He has quite a few Chargemasters for his business, and likes them a lot. However, he said that some double based flake powders will, over time (weeks), attack the plastic and be very tough to remove. Single based extruded powders seem to not have that problem.

Probably I’d have the same problem with the Lyman, but I never leave powder in it for more than 3 or 4 days.

Good to know...
Click to expand...


I did the same... and that was enough.

The issue with the warning in the manual is, that in mine it was in the part with those general warnings that nobody reads, because these are so repetitive with all products. I don't recall reading this important detail when I read through the section that explains how to operate the device itself.

There is also no warning in the product description: http://rcbs.com/Products/Powder-Mea...r-Measures/Electronic/ChargeMaster™-Lite.aspx

If I would have known this limitation, I would have never bought it. Not being able to keep powder in it over night is much like buying a car and the manufacturer expecting from you to remove the gas ever single night, because the tank can't hold it without getting damaged.

As I said, the Chargemaster is a design fail if it can't hold the only substances it is supposed to deal with. Which tells me that it was never developed for gunpowder to begin with.

All my powder measures have powder in them over night, heck for weeks and sometimes months, because I'm not going to remove it when I know that I will continue to load the same powder. None of my other powder measures get damaged from ANY powder. Not Redding, not Dillon, not Hornady, not my Omega trickler. Only the RCBS Chargemaster takes a huge hit.

I rest my case.
 
Ok McCarthy, was not sure about RCBS' electronics. Thanks for that. It just seems you're a bit miffed when people here don't take your words for gospel.

I rest my case.
 
Everyone settle down. NOW.

Or I will do the settling.

In the past 40 years I've loaded in excess of 100,000 rounds - handgun, rifle and shotshell.

Better than 95% of that loading g has been done with Lee presses, dies, priming tools, and measures.

I have had 0 failures of equipment in that time. I did wear out one of the aluminum based turret presses by turning .308s into .243s.

I buy Lee products because they work, work well, and last.

I buy Lee products

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
 
Mike Irwin. Understood. No problem.
You staff people here run a pretty easy going forum here. I'll certainly abide.
 
Last edited:
Aren't they long out of production?

Vega? Yes. I was lucky to get this. It uses standard B&M measures.

B&M is back in-business. I stopped in there a few years ago and talked to them. Their old measures can be bought on Ebay for <$80.
 
Precision.
I did a little googling and found a discussion of single granule powder value.
Doing a lot of dividing down from larger charge changes, it was agreed that one granule of Varget (.025 grain) was worth about one fps in a .308. So what does that do for your trajectory, group size or ladder test node?

Equipment.
My first powder measure was a Redding No 3 Master. It was ok with service and hunting rifle loads. I still use it for black powder but on the drop and trickle system like the Sharps Rifle Company told me to do "For fine shooting, powder should be weighed on a scale." Must work ok, I get lower ES and SD than any but the very best smokeless.

I had a Ohaus Duo-Measure with two different size cavities in the same drum. It was not a useful gimmick.

Most of my single stage volumetric loading is with a Uniflo small drum with micrometer adjustment.

The Bonanza with the peculiar angled chamber/handle is probably the most precise measure I have with extruded powder but it is tedious to adjust.

I load for F-T/R with a PACT dispenser system. It runs to tolerance of setpoint -0, +0.1 grain as read on the PACT scale or Lyman balance, which is good enough for me.

A friend found the PACT unsatisfactory and went to the RCBS Chargemaster. But he now second guesses it and is tweaking loads down to the granule. Is that why he is a Master and I am a Sharpshooter?

Plastic:
Leaving double base powder in a measure rotted the cheap acrylic hopper. I no longer recall if it was the Redding or RCBS. My Dillons must not be the same plastic, they are discolored by graphite but not etched, nor was the powder bottle on a MEC shotshell loader. I put a glass liner in my CH measure, it was getting yellow fast when new.
 
Jim Watson said:
I did a little googling and found a discussion of single granule powder value.

Doing a lot of dividing down from larger charge changes, it was agreed that one granule of Varget (.025 grain) was worth about one fps in a .308. So what does that do for your trajectory..
Click to expand...


About 0.01" at 500 yards. Now do the math with what was stated to be sufficient in this thread. My Chargemaster is off by +- 0.160gr.

0.160gr. x 2 = 0.320gr / 0.025gr = 12.8 FPS

12.8 FPS at 500 yards comes down to 0.6".

As I said, load consistency is one of many variables. If you can eliminate one through proper equipment, that is a no-brainer in my book.

http://gundata.org/ballistic-calculator/
 
When running ballistics programs, it also has to be born in mind that they assume a perfectly rigid barrel. Real guns move during recoil, and the movement starts before the bullet clears the muzzle. A lower velocity means longer barrel time, with the result the barrel has more time to move by the time the bullet actually leaves. So whether or not you see the computer-predicted drop on the target may or may not be born out in practice. In the end, you need to shoot to find out.
 
Unclenick said:
When running ballistics programs, it also has to be born in mind that they assume a perfectly rigid barrel. Real guns move during recoil, and the movement starts before the bullet clears the muzzle. A lower velocity means longer barrel time, with the result the barrel has more time to move by the time the bullet actually leaves. So whether or not you see the computer-predicted drop on the target may or may not be born out in practice. In the end, you need to shoot to find out.
Click to expand...
I know. There is obviously an entire chain of subsequent consequences, some of them enhancing or even multiplying the initial effect. I was just replying on the same very basic level introduced by Jim.

Either way: I do understand that this was never within the scope of the OP, and only came forward when I tried to make clear why the Chargemaster is not a precision devise, which led to explaining why a $1,500 lab grade scale makes sense to verify issues as well as top level handloading.

Somebody shooting 10k rounds a months on pistol training and matches will find the answer in a 1050. I'm well past mass production, I can get by with a box of 50 rifle rounds for several hours at the range. Precision and perfection is much more fulfilling than anything quantity based, at least for me.

I'm kinda surprised that so few own the Redding 10X measure for pistol loads around this forum. That measure and a good beam scale is really the golden standard IMO in that price bracket, and makes sense for a beginner coming from his first experiences with the rather outdated scooping sets.
 
I think what some here are missing is that a powder throw is nothing more than an adjustable Lee dipper. Both dippers and manual operated throws measure powder by volume not weight like the Chargemaster and Auto Throw. Any variation in the powder column results in a different "pack" Fine powders will give more consistent weights for the same reason a dipper of flour will be more consistent weight wise than a dipper of rice. The air spaces between the rice kernels will be more inconsistent than the air spaces between something of a finer texture such as flour. Most throws use a vertical cavity fill ( RCBS, Hornady, Lyman, Redding etc) while a couple like the Johnson Quick Throw use a horizontal cavity. The Johnson supposedly has a beveled scraper that reduces if not eliminates the cutting of stick powder I think Dillon measures also load horizontally but I may be wrong there.

Other than that most brands of mechanical throws only differ in fit and finish and how the adjustment screw(s) are marked for repeat ability. Sorry to jump on the sacred cow of the Ford vs Chevy vs Dodge mentality and but can throw to .02 grains repeatedly if with fine powder. It might get pretty consisten .1s and even dead on using the typical reloading scale if you keep the reservoir full, use baffles and tap the unit between throws. I can get good results with mine using CFE 223 or TAC but on a sensitive scale you see how far they are off in both directions.

A 500 dollar Harrel uses exactly the same principle as a 30 dollar Lee. It is nothing more than a hole whose volume can be adjusted that gets filled with powder from a hopper using gravity. The Harrel just looks whole lot prettier in the process and is smoother due to the metal construction and bearings. Not too mention the repeatability enabled by it's click system. It's like the difference between a Cadillac and a bottom end starter car. Both will get you from point A to point B though.

Google some of the mainstream throws user manuals and look at the exploded parts diagrams and see if I am lying

edited for bad speeling
 
Last edited:
McCarthy,

That's an expected precision call. As a rule of thumb, good pistol accuracy is about four times what the moa equivalent expectations for rifles are. People feel pretty darn good about a pistol that holds an inch at 25 yards and a rifle that holds an inch at 100 yards. The feel nearly ecstatic if the pistol holds an inch at 50 yards and the rifle holds half an inch at 100 yards. Drilling below that is what really starts to bring specialized equipment and practices on board.

I believe in making development loads as perfect as I possibly can; cases segregated by wall runout and prepped, primer seating depth measured for 0.003" reconsolidation, bullets seated to minimum runout, powder weighed on the lab scale and spread and carefully dispensed the same way to achieve matching powder packing.

But once the load is developed I try it out with different elements lacking. No case prep. Does it still work as well? Simple volumetric charge dispensing. Did the groups open up? No check for finished cartridge runout. Am I getting any fliers? Run through on one of the Dillons. Did the velocity SD increase? Does it still group just as well?

With rifle, I've seen a number of examples in which dropping one or more of the careful loading steps showed up clearly on paper. For pistol shooting 25-50 yards, it's been pretty inconclusive trying to distinguish the "perfect" rounds from the Dillon loads. My Encore pistol with scope will show up lack of concentricity, but it's in the 50 yard sub-inch range. For any handgun I own other than that one, the 10X would be a tool in search of a problem to solve.

Problems involving contribution to group diameter each create an error standard deviation on each axis. SD's add as the square root of the sum of the squares, so if I have a one-inch gun I can make out errors 16 times smaller than I can with a 4" gun.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top