Powder for 308

M G;

;) I, too, went back and reread...several times... Road_Clam's post and I stand by my post. It's my opinion, I'm entitled to it, as is everyone else in these fora (forums) and I think Clam is just about as high on his [horse] as you think I am on mine.

FWIW, I do not think Varget is "THE" powder. In fact, IMR4895 is now/has been my powder of choice since '75, (except for a few side trips to H4895) and has been my "go-to" for .223; .22-250; .243; 7-08; 7X57; .30-30; and .308 in the short cases, and in the larger cases from .25-06; .280 Rem.; 7 Rem. Mag; .30-06; .300 W'by.; .338 Win. Mag; and .444 Mar. [all the aforementioned for accuracy/reduced lds. only], as each caliber has its own preferred powder for hunting loads, although perhaps not so accurate for target work, but 'hunting accurate' enough for me.

M G...Everyone has his/her own preference for something...Anything.. and it matters not what anyone else thinks or cares relative to any other person's preference . Clam stated his opinion/preference, as have others here....and if you don't agree with anyone else..so what? Chill out. Who/what's gonna get hurt? Nuttin' but some feelings.

One does not need a great many posts to opine on something, or to call out something on someone else's posts, as long as the callout is legitimate, and that, my Friend, is where OPINION comes into play. I don't have much longer here, and I'll call 'em like I see 'em 'til I can't any longer, and therein lies the rest of the story (so to speak). Your opinion, Clam's opinion,and everyone else's. That's what makes these on-line get-togethers so much fun.

WILL.

BTW....'preciate the "Little fella" bit. It's been a looong time since I've been called that; And even longer since I've been small enough to BE called that. Thanks. (I think).:p
 
M G:

White flag, WHITE FLAG.!

One Grandpa to another. I've just not been myself lately. If I didn't know better (and here again, I have my doubts) I'd swear there's something to this Male Meno....Menop...well, whatever the hell they call it. I just haven't been myself since Jan. when I had a heart attack. Things just seem to bother me that I never would have given a second thought and I just get this wild hair and start picking at things for no particular reason. Don't know where the hair comes from...Been bald as a baseball for years.

Most of the time I just stroll through the forums [definitely NOT to be confused with 'trolling'] and see what's out there. Most of the time lately,though, it seems like the rehashing of topics with everybody jumping in and the same ol'-- same ol' all over again, and then....some yahoo goes off-topic with something totally unrelated to the subject at hand and it goes downhill from there.
You know.....YADA...YADA...YADA...etc.

Well, I think I feel a flash coming on... Gonna get on outa' here 'afore I go off on a tangent again. Catch ya' around.

WILL.
 
G_M M:

Yeah....,You can. No...,you can't. Yeah....,You Can. Ad infinitum. I've gotten small..read that bughole groups with a [baker's] dozen different powders in a half-dozen different .308s and .243s, but just about every one took a different recipe and loooonng hours of testing to get there. Now..., you tell me which one was B_E_S_T. They all gave practically the S_A_M_E level of accuracy as to group size. Different velocities...certainly; Differing recipes..,definitely... But...., Which one was B E S T... POWDER-WISE?

Theoretically speaking.. it's all preferential. And, whichever powder happens to be at hand when all the others are gone. Take any powder within reason for any cartridge......fast burning or slow and eventually....with substantial testing... you will find a good, perhaps excellent, load for that particular cartridge. Does that particular powder merit the "best" designation? To you, perhaps, but it doesn't make it absolute for anyone/everyone else...Generally speaking, of course.

To each their own. As a lark, years ago, I filled some '-06 cases to the neck with H-5010 primed w/Fed 215s, and topped w/some 168gr Nosler Match HPs and loaded them all into a Savage 116 W Warrior. 10 rds into one ragged hole covered completely by a dime with change to spare. Velocity was so slow, you could practically follow the bullet to the target. Efficient? NO. Practical? NO. Best powder? Hell, NO.

Later, I did the same with some LC cases and the same powder//primer//bullet combo. Disaster. I had .30-30 loads which beat that setup. So the controversy will continue....AD INFINITUM.

You have a good day.

WILL.
 
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Gentlemen, apologies for perceived stomping on peoples Varget parade, I did not intend to insult. I agree Varget is an excellent powder , however there is ALSO many equivalents that seem to have little "internet respect" IMO ( IN MY OPINION) it's simply because people have not taken the time to test alternate powders because it's so easy to gain knowledge from just reading on the internet and not doing the research yourself. Those of you who have tested Varget and it's your go to powder , you have my thumbs up. Me personally never observed exceptional accuracy when I tested Varget it was about average to my "better" .308 powders such as W748, and 4064. I actually saw sub par performance in .223 with lighter bullets, but YMMV. Like I commented previously when the SHTF your Varget (and RL15) will be nowhere to be found...
 
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RL15 and 4064 are a tie for me. although 4064 seems to be better with 168+ bullets.
I either have a forgiving rifle- or my technique is so bad that both loads are more accurate than I am.

I also have 4166. while I don't have any real data on loads yet. it sure meters nice. Nice enough to not have to weigh every stinking charge like 4064.
 
I just haven't been myself since Jan. when I had a heart attack.
Click to expand...

Sorry to her that , hope you're out of the woods and feeling better now :cool:

Back to powders , I was just thinking about something I read about Varget . I think it was this thread but did not want to look through all the post to find it . Someone said Varget works best at max load/pressure . If that's accurate , I'd think that may explain why so many don't find that perfect node . My thinking is two fold .

1) Most Shooters that are looking for pure accuracy don't really want a max load . Rather a load that accomplishes there goal of best accuracy . If I'm looking for an accurate load with a specific powder and I'm near or at peak pressure and still have not found what I'm looking for . I stop with that powder . Power Pro 2000mr comes to mind . I heard it does real well at max loads and or peak pressure . I've worked up a couple ponds worth of 2000mr using 5 or so different bullets never finding that one great load . Likely because I was unwilling to push the load right to it's max .I did find a good hunting load using 150 GK that shoots 1 moa at 100yds but again not at max pressure . If you do find a good load at max pressure I feel that leaves very little you can do to fine tune the load . Especially if you want to start seating the bullet closer to the lands . I found maybe my most accurate load to date a few months back using 4064 and 175gr smk . The problem I have with this load is every 3rd-ish shot I get a sticky bolt lift . That right there is right at my peak pressure and I'm not to comfortable shooting that load so I don't load it even though it shoots little one hole groups .

2) If you do end up having such a small max pressure widow to work with . I'd think that would create a issue with barrel/rifle harmonics . My thinking is there would be a little luck involved that your particular rifle was set up in such a way that Vargets peak pressure turned out to also be what creates the best harmonic factor for your rifle . I'm not sure how many here manipulate there rifle harmonics by adjusting the torque on the action screws as part of the fine tuning of a load . I'd think not many . How ever if you have a powder that does it's best work between mid to peak pressure . That powder may be much easier to find that one good load over a variety of rifles , barrels and contours . I'd be curious to see if Varget does better in a certain barrel length or contour then others .

Anyways that's just me thinking out loud here . Is that making any sense ?
 
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Metal- You bring up a good point. Action screws are one of the biggest factors in accuracy that no one seems to mess with. There was an article a few years back by some top shooter. Any how he decided to do a test on action screw tension. Long story short here- Most rifles will tell you somewhere between 50 to 65 inch lbs. What he found out in testing 10 different rifle makers is- Only 2 of those rifles where deemed good at that setting. The other 8 rifles were best between 30 to 40 inch lbs. I did the test on my 6br. I got to 35 in back and 30 front. Every lb I went above that the groups started opening up again. Most would be amazed how there shooting would improve by doing this simple test
 
Yea I was having a problem at one point of getting double groups in my 10 shot strings . I would get two 2/3" moa groups about 1/2" apart . I had seen these double groups before in my shooting but would only be shooting 3 or 4 shots . It did not become clear until I started shooting 10 shot groups .
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This issue cost me quite a bit of money and bore erosion in load development until I figured out what was going on . A load would shoot good first time out . However next time out it would not . I chased 3 and 4 shot good groups around the paper for a few hundred rounds until I started shooting 10 shot groups . That's when It became quite clear I had a problem .Thank god I keep ALL my load development targets .This allowed me to go back and see when it stared and track when it occurred . What was the problem you ask ? My back action screw was not very tight . Maybe 5 to 10 ponds and it would not stay tight when torqued back down . I went through a big ordeal with Savage about proper torque for the rifle and that my rear action screw would keep coming loose . The final answer from Savage was 40lbs on both action screws . Well that turned my sub moa rifle into an moa at best rifle . This prompted me to do an action screw torque test of my own . I came up with 35lbs front 30lbs back and could do 30-30 with good results . I even found a 25-15 that worked but I felt that was to light . Anyways I used some locktite on the screws and have not had a double group since .
 
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I sure dint mean to get anyone in an uproar. I'm just trying powders out. As per Internet Varget was first I tried to find. Got a lot of hype and everyone seemed to be using it. Settled for Benchmark as it was the only other powder the store recommended. I've on,y been at this a few months. Bought some Nosler, Sierra and Hornady manuals. Looked like a lot of other powders to try.

Since I shoot 99% Nosler bullets I followed their powder selection. Bought. IMR 3031 and 4064 Reloader 15. Seems like IMR 3031 does best for me with 40-43 gr powder using 165-168 nbts. Reloader 15 for 165 Sierra game kings. IMR 4064 for 178 gr Hornady Amax. I haven't loaded anything over 44 grains of powder in 308 yet. Started at lowest loads and laddered up .5 grains on tests. Man, does it take a lot of loading and shooting to try all these out. But, I love it. Way better than factory and much cheaper. I started to buy some blc2 but saw some bad reviews with it being inconsistent. May try some anyway. So far the IMR powders have done the best for me that is. I'm not a bench shooter but a hunter who likes to shoot. Husband is the super picky one with groups. Likes clover leafs touching or he's hunting a different load. Loaded up IMR 4831 at 62-63 grains for his 7 mag and it turned out perfect. Good luck first time out I guess.
 
Wendy; You haven't. Stay on here long enough, and you'll find it's standard procedure. No ill-will intended toward anyone in particular.

As to powders, you'll find that any powder which fills the case to the base of the bullet will probably be most accurate in that burn range for the .308 size cases, ( medium burn range powders). Some of the faster burning powders will not fill the case and still reach max pressure without giving best accuracy. The slower burning powders will fill the case without giving decent pressures or velocities and in turn....less-than-decent accuracy. In short, powders somewhere around the 4895s(H & IMR); 8208; Benchmark; and Varget... all, when loaded to near max pressures , will give the optimum in accuracy and velocity. With some loads using H322, you can get very good accuracy without too-high pressures, but you have to work at those loads.
Sometimes, you have to take the higher velocity to get the best accuracy; And to get the best accuracy you sometimes have to load to higher pressures....near max pressures in some cases. Like Mr. Potterfield says... "And that's the way it is" Just keep in mind that each rifle and caliber are their own entity, and what works well for one just may not work for another. That's why you experiment for the best in each. Trial and error will be the only way to go. What you see in the manuals is only a guideline. Your setup will always be different from the manuals...even when using the same components listed in those manuals. Check out the MidSouth Shooter's Supply Shooter's Blog/ Enduron Powders and you might get some of your answers to your loading questions Re: powders.


M g. I've found that torqueing action screws to factory specs don't always work, and in one instance... caused the trigger guard to snap at the middle screw, actually, the front guard screw.(Ruger 77). So now ,I just tighten the front and rear screws hand tight (Just snug) with a drop of Loc-Tite and let it go. I've gotten some of the best accuracy with this set-up and no loosening of either screw. On those with a middle screw, I barely tighten it... still works.

WILL.
 
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I use 4064 for smk 175!! But I just picked up 5 pounds of varget so I want to see how the nosler 175 and 175 smk work with varget!!! Any ideas??
 
I'm no expert by far but my best groups last week were IMR 4064 and 178 gr amax. Not your bullet but weight is close. Fired a really tight .502 group with 3 rounds and stretched that to 1.123 by firing 2 more. Have figured out that Tikka T3 Lite is only going to give me 3 shot groups at best. Barrell gets too hot after 3. I was using 40 grains of 4064 Hornady brass and cci primers. 2.80 coal as I'm loading to fit my magazine. The IMR 3031 seems best in my rifle 1-11 twist for 150-168 gr bullets. IMR 4064 for anything bigger. Just my short reloading experience.
 
ha ha , 40.3gr IMR 4064 with a 178gr A-max is one of my best loads to date . Sub moa 10 shot groups at 100 and 200 yds any farther and the shooter seem to mess things up :rolleyes: still about moa though .
 
Metal I loaded about 6 up in some long range match brass this evening trying that extra .3 grains. Used br2 primers. Anxious to see what they do at the range tomorrow.
 
Searching for a powder can be really scientific or totally an accident. My grandson was given a Ruger 77 International in 308, so I decided to load some ammo for him for a test. Bought some 150 gr SST's and then looked at my powder supplies. Hmmm. Had some IMR4064, but not much of it, and it was my go-to in the 260 (for the 100 grainers) and the 220 (for the 55 grainers). Well...I did have some IMR3031. Put about 40 grains (going on memory, since I don't have my load book with me) in some decent brass and walked out to my bench and put 3 in a small group. Let it cool and did it again. Great little group. Heck, that's the fastest work-up I ever did. Now I see that 40 grains of 3031 is considered a great combo. I'd like to say that I knew that, but truth is that I just stumbled over it. Doesn't matter. That kid grabs my Tikka 260 every chance he gets.
 
My 308 load was actually 41 grains of 3031. As for the Tikka in 260, that's a problem that only needs money rubbed on it for a cure. I am extremely pleased with my rifle, which at the time I wanted to buy a stainless T3 lite, was not available in that caliber. A guy on another forum said he'd have one made up for me, so I went with that. He bought a 308 and rebarreled it with a Brux number 4 contour barrel. Cost a bit, but wow does it shoot.

So...get one. I use mine for a varmint/deer rifle and shoot the 100 gr Nosler BT. A hot load of IMR4064 works great. Super duper all around rifle for central Texas.
 
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