Post Shooting Trauma
- Thread starter garryc
- Start date
Dave Grossman's excellent book "On Combat" discusses this at length.
Not everyone suffers from PTSD or other problems. In fact, we are told by society that we surely must "feel" bad when we must defend ourselves, so people winning gunfights sometimes do but it is also very often not the case.
It is also true that cops and soldiers who are told by colleagues that they did the right thing suffer far less than those who aren't validated in such a way. This is why so many Vietnam vets suffered from PTSD. Their actions weren't validated when they came home.
I have never been in that situation, either as a civilian or when I was in the Army, but I have close friends who have been in lethal encounters and who have not suffered lingering after effects. They are far from being sociopaths. They just chose not to let the actions of bad people affect the rest of their lives.
Not everyone suffers from PTSD or other problems. In fact, we are told by society that we surely must "feel" bad when we must defend ourselves, so people winning gunfights sometimes do but it is also very often not the case.
It is also true that cops and soldiers who are told by colleagues that they did the right thing suffer far less than those who aren't validated in such a way. This is why so many Vietnam vets suffered from PTSD. Their actions weren't validated when they came home.
I have never been in that situation, either as a civilian or when I was in the Army, but I have close friends who have been in lethal encounters and who have not suffered lingering after effects. They are far from being sociopaths. They just chose not to let the actions of bad people affect the rest of their lives.
My nephew was in afganistan and Iraq, had some bad fire fights under his belt. He was de briefed one on one, he said he hated to have to do what he did, but if he didnt something wores might come down the line. He seems OK, isnt as brash or acts as ballsy, I mark it up to maturing and growing up in a sense.
Buds were in Nam dont talk about it much, my Uncle sent pics from the battlefield and enjoyed the hunt. Diferent folks take it in differently. Some cant pull a trigger on a deer, some cant wait to kill one.
One Uncle was driving a boat in Omaha beach landing went nuts, saw his friends blown up, body parts floating in the boat, after 4 or 5 he just went in circles till they got to him, he is still in a home to this day.
Uncle Ray was also in ww2 he is in a home due to alzheimers.
Buds were in Nam dont talk about it much, my Uncle sent pics from the battlefield and enjoyed the hunt. Diferent folks take it in differently. Some cant pull a trigger on a deer, some cant wait to kill one.
One Uncle was driving a boat in Omaha beach landing went nuts, saw his friends blown up, body parts floating in the boat, after 4 or 5 he just went in circles till they got to him, he is still in a home to this day.
Uncle Ray was also in ww2 he is in a home due to alzheimers.
Roland Thunder
New member
hartlock said:
You are correct, I had you mistaken with someone else on this thread that said that. My apologies.
had me wondering there for awhile. I had to goaarondhgraham
New member
This is not a correct statement at all,,,
It's putting a personal opinion and it's implied value as a benchmark for all human behavior.
Perhaps I am one of these "principled sociopaths" I have been hearing about lately,,,
But I experience no guilt feelings at all about doing harm to someone who is/was trying to harm me.
This is the danger of "labeling" people in our society.
Glenn Meyer stated: "There are people who show no emotional consequence or strong affect after taking a life. Sociopaths may be like that. Does that imply all those who didn't get a stress disorder are sociopathic - no, it doesn't. But some could be."
This is a true statement but people in general make the mistake of forgetting the most important part of the statement,,,
Does that imply all those who didn't get a stress disorder are sociopathic - no, it doesn't.
More often than not people will automatically assign the label without thinking of the exceptions,,,
Because it's an easy thing to do and they don't have to think very hard about it.
Aarond
chadstrickland
New member
Some scary thoughts floating around in this thread...kinda makes you just want to wound someone if u had to draw your weapon..only problem with that is it seems like in the laws eyes wounding is way worse than killing....just saying that u wanted to wound instead of killing is a big no no...atleast this is hhear say...I dnt know the facts....and I have 2 uncles that killed people in Vietnam and it does seem to bother them some...im not around them alot but I can see it when they watch we where soldiers and stuff like that...weird thing is that I had a grandfather that was in world war 2 and it never bothered him..he used to tell me stories all the time..idk..like alot of people have already said..it depends on the said individual
I usually try to avoid these threads because its one of those things where dreading it may make you hesitate when taking the shot.
Id rather be alive with ptsd than dead without it so ill deal with it if it happens.
I have gotten a taste of the anxiety it may cause as a 18yr old kid died in a car accident behind my house a few years ago. He died while looking at me and it haunted me for awhile but has faded.
He was recklessly speeding going double posted speed limit and no seatbelt. We swore he had to be drunk but turned out he was the a DD pledge for the fraternity and they are pressured to get there fast(caused quite a stir).
Id rather be alive with ptsd than dead without it so ill deal with it if it happens.
I have gotten a taste of the anxiety it may cause as a 18yr old kid died in a car accident behind my house a few years ago. He died while looking at me and it haunted me for awhile but has faded.
He was recklessly speeding going double posted speed limit and no seatbelt. We swore he had to be drunk but turned out he was the a DD pledge for the fraternity and they are pressured to get there fast(caused quite a stir).
Another 2 cents worth.
I say this with personal conviction, and personal authority.
I must agree 100% with the information shared by Glenn E. It jives perfectly with the things I know about this subject. Not what I believe... what I know.
First off PTSD can be caused by a single shooting but is more likely to be cause by total imersion in a life and death stress situation day in and day out over a period of time.
Anyone who takes another persons life and says he feels nothing is missing a component in their personality. I'm not suggesting that they must feel remorse... but they will feel something. It does get easier to handle the second time, and even easier the third time. This person may appear to be callus, but there is a deep emotional response. It may not be remorse as most people know it... but it's there.
In the civilian world as police, and armed citizens the reaction is a whole lot more acute. Solders are trained, and usually fight a defined enimy. I'm not saying that makes it any easier on them. I dont really know as I have never been in military combat. I do know as a civilian the work is done up close and very personal. Your adversary might look like you, or look like the kid next door... or may even be the kid next door. In the civilian world your always close enough to see the other guy, smell him, notice the color of his clothes, you may even touch him, or him touch you... Sometimes you hear his last words... he may curse you... he may forgive you... You may be close enough to watch the light go out in his eyes. You may hear him take his last breath... then be still... forever. You may realise that this man is gone... his life taken from him by you. Not just taken from him... but taken from those who love him... you may have taken a father from his children, or a husband from his wife ... forever.
You would have every right to have an emotional response. Any human being would. But it may not be what you or others would expect. As were all different, with different experiences there cant be one accepted emotional response... but there should be something. Anyone who dont feel anything after such an event would scare the crap out of me...
This is one of two things a police psychiatrist looks for... some emotional response. The other thing is that the officer is not debilitated by the event. They want to know basically... If you had to... could you do it again.
Glenn D.
I say this with personal conviction, and personal authority.
I must agree 100% with the information shared by Glenn E. It jives perfectly with the things I know about this subject. Not what I believe... what I know.
First off PTSD can be caused by a single shooting but is more likely to be cause by total imersion in a life and death stress situation day in and day out over a period of time.
Anyone who takes another persons life and says he feels nothing is missing a component in their personality. I'm not suggesting that they must feel remorse... but they will feel something. It does get easier to handle the second time, and even easier the third time. This person may appear to be callus, but there is a deep emotional response. It may not be remorse as most people know it... but it's there.
In the civilian world as police, and armed citizens the reaction is a whole lot more acute. Solders are trained, and usually fight a defined enimy. I'm not saying that makes it any easier on them. I dont really know as I have never been in military combat. I do know as a civilian the work is done up close and very personal. Your adversary might look like you, or look like the kid next door... or may even be the kid next door. In the civilian world your always close enough to see the other guy, smell him, notice the color of his clothes, you may even touch him, or him touch you... Sometimes you hear his last words... he may curse you... he may forgive you... You may be close enough to watch the light go out in his eyes. You may hear him take his last breath... then be still... forever. You may realise that this man is gone... his life taken from him by you. Not just taken from him... but taken from those who love him... you may have taken a father from his children, or a husband from his wife ... forever.
You would have every right to have an emotional response. Any human being would. But it may not be what you or others would expect. As were all different, with different experiences there cant be one accepted emotional response... but there should be something. Anyone who dont feel anything after such an event would scare the crap out of me...
This is one of two things a police psychiatrist looks for... some emotional response. The other thing is that the officer is not debilitated by the event. They want to know basically... If you had to... could you do it again.
Glenn D.
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I knew this fellow who was a prison guard. He often was tasked with transporting prisoners to court, the hospital, and so on. Well, I was young and stupid and I asked him if he ever had to use his .38 revolver. He said 'well yes, once'. He said 'This old boy got out of his restraints and made a run for it, so I shot him in the buttocks'. I said 'still you must have felt bad about having to shot him'. He said 'Well I understood he had to run and he understood that I had to shoot him in the ass'
I think it is not regret about doing what you had to, it is remorse about the outcome. It would have been better if they had not been killed or grievously wounded.
I think it is not regret about doing what you had to, it is remorse about the outcome. It would have been better if they had not been killed or grievously wounded.
RimfireChris
New member
I think chadstrickland brought up a good point, reinforcing the idea that how the people around us percieve the shooting can profoundly effect how we feel about it.
Good points in this thread.
Society has conditioned us, in a sense, to feel REALLY bad, and to react in a certain way if we have to take a life. It has been this way for a long time, and it has profoundly affected the treatment received by the person who did the shooting.
It is for this reason that the way police shootings are handled have changed quite a bit. Nowadays, the officer's firearm is taken into evidence; however, the officer is immediately re-armed. There are lots of people who are there for the officer, to offer both moral and physical support.
I have seen the aftermath of the use of deadly force. I, too, have seen the light leave the eyes, and have heard the "death rattle" that comes when life flees the body. It is quite a sobering experience, and a reminder of your own mortality.
I will say this, however--you MUST search yourself, truthfully and completely, before you EVER consider carrying a firearm for self defense--or even on duty. To carry a firearm, you must accept the knowledge that you ight, some day, have to use that firearm to cause another human being great pain and suffering, maybe even death. And, I must warn you--hearing a grown man cry and scream, calling for his mother (mostly) or another loved one, seeing someone who has experienced a solid upper chest hit literally coughing out their lungs, or seeing and realizing exactly what high-velocity blood splatter actually LOOKS like is a sobering experience.
You must decide if you CAN cause that to occur to a human being. And--if you have any doubt...any doubt at ALL...do yourself and your family a favor. Take the gun off your belt, leave it in the safe, and take it only to the range. Because if you do not feel that you can defend yourself, but you still carry a gun---and your moment of truth arrives, you might hesitate. Then, the person who is hurt will be YOU--or someone you love.
Society has conditioned us, in a sense, to feel REALLY bad, and to react in a certain way if we have to take a life. It has been this way for a long time, and it has profoundly affected the treatment received by the person who did the shooting.
It is for this reason that the way police shootings are handled have changed quite a bit. Nowadays, the officer's firearm is taken into evidence; however, the officer is immediately re-armed. There are lots of people who are there for the officer, to offer both moral and physical support.
I have seen the aftermath of the use of deadly force. I, too, have seen the light leave the eyes, and have heard the "death rattle" that comes when life flees the body. It is quite a sobering experience, and a reminder of your own mortality.
I will say this, however--you MUST search yourself, truthfully and completely, before you EVER consider carrying a firearm for self defense--or even on duty. To carry a firearm, you must accept the knowledge that you ight, some day, have to use that firearm to cause another human being great pain and suffering, maybe even death. And, I must warn you--hearing a grown man cry and scream, calling for his mother (mostly) or another loved one, seeing someone who has experienced a solid upper chest hit literally coughing out their lungs, or seeing and realizing exactly what high-velocity blood splatter actually LOOKS like is a sobering experience.
You must decide if you CAN cause that to occur to a human being. And--if you have any doubt...any doubt at ALL...do yourself and your family a favor. Take the gun off your belt, leave it in the safe, and take it only to the range. Because if you do not feel that you can defend yourself, but you still carry a gun---and your moment of truth arrives, you might hesitate. Then, the person who is hurt will be YOU--or someone you love.
Nobody is saying that someone would feel all of those symptoms. If they did then they would be ready for the rubber room. But some of them to some degree. The article is more of a piece of information on what to watch for.
In my case I shot a guy when I was in the Navy. He actually shot at me first. I had caught him breaking into a building. What really made me subject to the trauma at a high level was that I had seen my best friend engulfed in flames two weeks prior. I put him out, he died shortly after. And that was an arson fire. Another story for another time.
Lets just say my personality radically changed. I lost a rank for fighting a superior petty officer. At my next captains mast, again for fighting, I was ordered to see psych. I went four times and denied anything was wrong, trying not to show weakness, trying to be Mr. Tough guy. Each time the Doctor ordered me to return.
Then I got in another bar fight, one that I started I might add. I ended up in the EM room at the naval hospital after being taken there by JAFP ( which I also worked at as one of my two jobs). As it turned out, that Doctor was duty officer that night. He ordered me escorted to his office.
When I tried to deny anything wrong he ordered me to attention, then proceeded to dress me down, and I mean nose to nose screaming at me like a Marine D.I. That kind of broke down some barriers.
I saw him regularly for a time, not always in his office. That officer took me fishing several times. He also hooked me up with a CPO who picked me up on Sunday mornings and took me to church off base. I was always a christian but I had lost touch with that.
As it turned out, this Doctor had done two back to back tours as an enlisted combat Marine in Vietnam. He knew first hand what he was talking about. He was also one of the founders of using cognitive therapy, including getting out of the clinical setting, for combat related PTSD.
In my case I shot a guy when I was in the Navy. He actually shot at me first. I had caught him breaking into a building. What really made me subject to the trauma at a high level was that I had seen my best friend engulfed in flames two weeks prior. I put him out, he died shortly after. And that was an arson fire. Another story for another time.
Lets just say my personality radically changed. I lost a rank for fighting a superior petty officer. At my next captains mast, again for fighting, I was ordered to see psych. I went four times and denied anything was wrong, trying not to show weakness, trying to be Mr. Tough guy. Each time the Doctor ordered me to return.
Then I got in another bar fight, one that I started I might add. I ended up in the EM room at the naval hospital after being taken there by JAFP ( which I also worked at as one of my two jobs). As it turned out, that Doctor was duty officer that night. He ordered me escorted to his office.
When I tried to deny anything wrong he ordered me to attention, then proceeded to dress me down, and I mean nose to nose screaming at me like a Marine D.I. That kind of broke down some barriers.
I saw him regularly for a time, not always in his office. That officer took me fishing several times. He also hooked me up with a CPO who picked me up on Sunday mornings and took me to church off base. I was always a christian but I had lost touch with that.
As it turned out, this Doctor had done two back to back tours as an enlisted combat Marine in Vietnam. He knew first hand what he was talking about. He was also one of the founders of using cognitive therapy, including getting out of the clinical setting, for combat related PTSD.
Glenn E. Meyer
New member
I might have seemed strident, for which I apologize. My point was based on the problem that some folks suffering from stress disorders have been denied help as superiors, bureaucracy, etc. have made light of the problem. That is a shame and a disgrace to our emergency professions and war fighters.
When we talked to police, we found some unwilling to discuss the issue, calling those who suffered a derogatory feminine name and worried that seeking help would hurt them professionally. Then they told us symptoms.
How they almost shot a child, did shoot a child - all legit - or some other critical incident and they still have problems. Or other issues - thus, I just want those to do feel such to get help and we should accept that it does happen.
As I said and others, if you don't get stress disorders - it doesn't necessarily mean you are disordered either.
It's a complicated issue.
When we talked to police, we found some unwilling to discuss the issue, calling those who suffered a derogatory feminine name and worried that seeking help would hurt them professionally. Then they told us symptoms.
How they almost shot a child, did shoot a child - all legit - or some other critical incident and they still have problems. Or other issues - thus, I just want those to do feel such to get help and we should accept that it does happen.
As I said and others, if you don't get stress disorders - it doesn't necessarily mean you are disordered either.
It's a complicated issue.
RimfireChris
New member
^^Pretty much dead on man.
Excellent thread.
People who carry the means to inflict mortal damage (and, whether they know it or not, pretty much everyone does) need to know that there may be consequences they have not anticipated.
They also need to know that there may not be.
I see post-deployment AD members of all services (as mentioned before, such debriefing is now standard).
I also occasionally debrief LEOs who have been involved in a shots fired incident.
Reactions to taking life (or related almosts) are as varied as the personalities involved and the events experienced.
I like the comment about "appropriate amount of time" with a Mental Health Professional. That may be 15 minutes, 15 days, or 15 months.
Oh, BTW, statistics are quite useful but cannot tell you (or me) anything about what might happen to us in the future.
Best,
Will
People who carry the means to inflict mortal damage (and, whether they know it or not, pretty much everyone does) need to know that there may be consequences they have not anticipated.
They also need to know that there may not be.
I see post-deployment AD members of all services (as mentioned before, such debriefing is now standard).
I also occasionally debrief LEOs who have been involved in a shots fired incident.
Reactions to taking life (or related almosts) are as varied as the personalities involved and the events experienced.
I like the comment about "appropriate amount of time" with a Mental Health Professional. That may be 15 minutes, 15 days, or 15 months.
Oh, BTW, statistics are quite useful but cannot tell you (or me) anything about what might happen to us in the future.
Best,
Will
Yeah, we had a disturbance one time in which a couple officers got hurt. The warden at the time made some comments after that I thought discounted what we did. I pointed out that he and the deputies, and all the higher ups, headed out the main entrance to "Set up the CIM command post". Turns out it was over quick, due to the command of a lowly LT.
I taught a course on PTSD at our academy. In the design of the course, I consulted with the department Psychologist, a former police officer who had killed on the job. In fact, every member of his team was an officer who had either killed in the line of duty, or lost a partner on the job.
There is an inoculation effect - if the issue is discussed and studied, without the macho name calling and "it will never happen to me", the effects are usually reduced.
As noted, not everyone has all/some/any of the effects of PTSD.
It so happened that a DPS officer was killed just outside our academy, and I ended up doing some on-scene counseling for his partner, who was unable to get off a shot. He said nice things about me in his after-action debrief, so I must have gotten some of it right.
Later, I killed someone in the line of duty. It never bothered me in any way, as I am secure in the knowledge that I saved others.
For a reference and seminal work in the area, read "The Onion Field". It has a clear presentation of PTSD before we knew what to call it.
There is an inoculation effect - if the issue is discussed and studied, without the macho name calling and "it will never happen to me", the effects are usually reduced.
As noted, not everyone has all/some/any of the effects of PTSD.
It so happened that a DPS officer was killed just outside our academy, and I ended up doing some on-scene counseling for his partner, who was unable to get off a shot. He said nice things about me in his after-action debrief, so I must have gotten some of it right.
Later, I killed someone in the line of duty. It never bothered me in any way, as I am secure in the knowledge that I saved others.
For a reference and seminal work in the area, read "The Onion Field". It has a clear presentation of PTSD before we knew what to call it.
I have no experience with this. I was in the USMC years ago but never fired a weapon at anything but a paper, metal, plastic or other target. I've shot a couple nuisance animals but am not a hunter.
But, as a person who carries a concealed handgun and keeps a loaded shotgun in the bedroom I've thought about the topic. Its as much a part of preparation as any other training.
I remember a section of To Ride, Shoot Straight and Speak The Truth where Jeff Cooper deals with this exact topic. Cooper believes that one should not feel psychological trauma in the aftermath of a justifiable shoot. His opinion is you should feel good because you defeated your enemy. I've always hoped to be able to come up to this standard should my time come.
But, as a person who carries a concealed handgun and keeps a loaded shotgun in the bedroom I've thought about the topic. Its as much a part of preparation as any other training.
I remember a section of To Ride, Shoot Straight and Speak The Truth where Jeff Cooper deals with this exact topic. Cooper believes that one should not feel psychological trauma in the aftermath of a justifiable shoot. His opinion is you should feel good because you defeated your enemy. I've always hoped to be able to come up to this standard should my time come.
aarondhgraham
New member
Glenn Meyer stated: I might have seemed strident, for which I apologize. My point was based on the problem that some folks suffering from stress disorders have been denied help as superiors, bureaucracy, etc. have made light of the problem.
That was very evident during and immediately following Viet Nam,,,
There were still a heck of a lot of WW-II vets around then,,,
I had friends who were severely screwed up by Nam,,,
But the WW-II vets sneered at then for being so.
My former father-in-law was a navigator in a B-24 for three years in WW-II,,,
My former mother-in-law said he was a completely different man after he returned home,,,
In the late 70's I heard him make many comments on how the "Viet Nam P___ies" should just man up and get a grip.
My FIL was a mans man,,,
He just accepted and dealt with the nightmares,,,
I believe the disorder he experienced was called Bomber's Remorse.
The one time I mentioned that phrase,,,
I thought he was going to hit me.
"Men don't talk about that stuff." was his oft used phrase.
Speculation has it that Audie Murphy had severe PTSD after WW-II,,,
But he was also a strong advocate for returning Korea and Nam veterans who were messed up.
It's completely different now in the Army,,,
I was talking to a student who just returned from Afghanistan.
He said there were support groups available immediately after returning from a patrol,,,
If there was any shooting on the patrol then your attendance was mandatory,,,
And it wasn't a chaplain but a trained psychologist leading the group.
Wow! I say,,,
What a cultural difference between then and now.
I do often wonder about my reactions after a violent encounter,,,
Or maybe I should say my lack of a reaction.
All I can truly say is that he was down and I was not,,,
And that's exactly the way I wanted it to be.
I was very pleased and content with the outcome.
Aarond
That was very evident during and immediately following Viet Nam,,,
There were still a heck of a lot of WW-II vets around then,,,
I had friends who were severely screwed up by Nam,,,
But the WW-II vets sneered at then for being so.
My former father-in-law was a navigator in a B-24 for three years in WW-II,,,
My former mother-in-law said he was a completely different man after he returned home,,,
In the late 70's I heard him make many comments on how the "Viet Nam P___ies" should just man up and get a grip.
My FIL was a mans man,,,
He just accepted and dealt with the nightmares,,,
I believe the disorder he experienced was called Bomber's Remorse.
The one time I mentioned that phrase,,,
I thought he was going to hit me.
"Men don't talk about that stuff." was his oft used phrase.
Speculation has it that Audie Murphy had severe PTSD after WW-II,,,
But he was also a strong advocate for returning Korea and Nam veterans who were messed up.
It's completely different now in the Army,,,
I was talking to a student who just returned from Afghanistan.
He said there were support groups available immediately after returning from a patrol,,,
If there was any shooting on the patrol then your attendance was mandatory,,,
And it wasn't a chaplain but a trained psychologist leading the group.
Wow! I say,,,
What a cultural difference between then and now.
I do often wonder about my reactions after a violent encounter,,,
Or maybe I should say my lack of a reaction.
All I can truly say is that he was down and I was not,,,
And that's exactly the way I wanted it to be.
I was very pleased and content with the outcome.
Aarond
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