Poor police procedure?

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http://www.komonews.com/news/local/78088192.html
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This is what CAN happen. . .even on Sunday during the daylight when you think the bad guys are all strung out.

My very best friend is a sworn officer and I love him like a brother.

I hope to NEVER see another incident that takes the lives of officers just because they got lax for a moment.

The restaurant is very open and there are two entrances. I have seen police there often but only in ones and twos.

I have never seen so many in one place at one time and that is what prompted the original post.
Those officers could have been far more aware than what I saw. I hope so.

I do remember in the last 3 years or so seeing 5 officers at a Dunkin Donuts shop.

I go there every Friday to pick up a dozen for the Range Officers at the range I frequent.

The LT. was killed a few weeks later when he was ambushed during a "normal" car stop.

Police work is dangerous enough without giving the wannabe bad dudes an opportunity to make a name for themselves.
 
I walk in to pick up my order and there are six uniformed officers and two civilians ( may have been officers ) sitting at one table taking lunch.

What I noticed is that four had their back to the outside and next to a window and four had their back to me.
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??
 
You park bikes from left to right, and mount from right to left,that way you can get them closer together, and take up less parking spaces.
Sounds like they had each others backs.
 
Cops working motors are taught and trained how to park their motors.

How many are allowed to take breaks/meals together depends on the practices & policies of any particular agency, and can be affected by the nature of their detail/duties at that time. (It's not uncommon for agencies to have limitations on how many officers routinely can be seen together for coffee breaks & meals, as this is the sort of thing that can result in unwanted PR issues, public perception issues, etc.)

As far as how they were sitting? Yep, if they were seated facing each other, they ought to have been able to cover all directions. That freedom of vision ought to have been able to be applied to outside the windows to some extent, too. Doesn't mean it would have been obvious, though. Sometimes the appearance of deliberate attention serves a purpose, and sometimes discrete attention to surroundings is more useful. Watching without appearing to be watching is handy in a public situation, and it helps ease potential friction (since some folks can get nervous if they think cops are watching them).

Now, cops are people, too. I've certainly known enough guys & gals who didn't always have their officer safety awareness up and engaged in all situations and circumstances.

The four officers shot & killed in Lakewood WA (Nov '09) was a tragic reminder of how someone looking to kill police in public can take advantage of when officers may be taking a break or a meal in public.

Whenever I used to stop for coffee or a meal with a partner (whether working uniform or plainclothes), most of the other cops with whom I met were always aware (without being obvious) of all directions, the general presence and movement of the public and any changes in the crowds of any size. (Sometimes a subtle crowd reaction, or undercurrent, can provide an early warning before a potential threat is itself visible.)
 
Methinks there is some paranoia out there. The reality is, given a base rate of 0.0073% (yes 73 ten-thousandths of a percent), for being a murder victim we are actually quite safe here in America.

According to the LEOKA (law enforcement officers killed or injured in action) data there are 1.5 officers who lose their life by their own hand for every 1 officer that dies due to hostile action. Or, any given officer is 50% more likely to take their own life than die by hostile action. Or, for the officers at that table, if two are shot and killed by a booger-eater, three will take their own life.

I suspect the 6 (or 8) officers, with mutual coverage and interlocking fields of fire, are going to be okay at the local Pizza Hut.
 
I have the privilege of serving in full-time LE. For me, the question is moot; when I'm on duty, I NEVER eat in public. I take all of my meal breaks [all 30 minutes of it:rolleyes:] at the station. The main reason for this is, I learned early on that an officer eating in public is a "question magnet". Manners are dying these days; people think nothing of interrupting a LEO's meal break. Now, don't get me wrong, if an emergency comes up, food is forgotten, and everybody on duty rolls out. On the other hand, trying to hurriedly eat your lunch before the next call comes out is bad enough. Having some thoughtless jerk come up and needlessly interrupt your meal with "Can you recommend a good attorney?" is worse. Having said that, I'll throw in my 2 cents: Even in a group, at least a few LEOs at the table should be eyeing the door. Remember that group of officers sitting at a restaurant table a few years ago who all ended up being gunned down?
 
Agree that somebody needs to be minding the entrance, but if they were facing each other, somebody had to be watching ... when we go to a restaurant, my wife automatically takes a seat that gives me a view of the front door and as much of the dining area as possible ... just seems to make sense ...
 
I dont care who comes up to me during meals. I am getting paid and the meal is second to me. Also avoid the "drunk time" right after the bars close. Always can find someone who will let their mouth volunteer themselves into a ride to the station. Once most of the population is tucked in, then we will grab a meal, by self or group of two or more tables. Facing door, window, salad bar, you name it. But trust me when i say we are more aware or you then you know. We probably mention everyone who walks in. Never know when Johnny ****bag decides to get a late bite. But we are ready to say hi to him. Are we more aware then you... cant answer that because a general statement is usually wrong. But we do train in the Wild Bill Hiccock door theory.
Now a subtle or sneak attack can give the aggressor the upper hand for the first moments of any confrontation...but who prevails will be determined by much more.
 
The police learnt the hard way not to do that here. Over 300 members of the RUC were killed and almost 9,000 injured.
 
I think it would be wise for them to stagger their lunch shifts so they're not all out of service at the same time.
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Guaranteed they weren't the whole shift. Being all the motors were out together, they probably just got done with training.


Staggered lunches are mandatory, and many places don't like more than two at the same place.

Also, were the officers not facing each other, meaning someone had to have been facing out towards the general entrance area? THey were looking and hearing-believe it.
 
Honestly, most of us have more awareness the the average cop. Sure he's on high alert when making a stop or responding to a call, but the rest of the time, not so much.
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You are kidding, right?
 
My bet is with the 8 of them they've already got you scoped and off the radar by the time you had them counted. I don't stare down every person that walks in when I'm at a restaurant, why should they. One guy giving you a glance is enough, same as you taking a cursory look at who's around and then minding your business. These guys, no different.
 
This thread was started due to paranoia. Cops can't eat lunch together because they are a target? Can you not be actively engaged in conversation without also being alert.

Keep in mind there were also six loaded ready to e deployed guns in there too.
 
This thread was started due to paranoia.
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You are amusing.

The thread was started by an observation that eight police officers taking lunch at the same table and at the same time is a recipe for disaster.

Try to read through the whole thread instead of making remarks with no basis in fact.
 
geetarman said:
The thread was started by an observation that eight police officers taking lunch at the same table and at the same time is a recipe for disaster.
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Agree to disagree. The OP thought there should be a protocol for how many uniformed officers may eat lunch together because he is worried they are a "high level target". They are people eating lunch. 6 armed and trained people eating lunch. "Some with their backs to the door"...how do you propose they sit? 6 wide all facing the door? I do firmly believe in being aware of your surroundings and not making yourself a target however I don't believe that putting on the uniform and eating together makes you a target. I think it makes you normal. Why wouldn't someone really intent on killing lots of easy target LEO walk into a station and during morning/per shift briefing walk into the rear entrance of the room and open fire? Then they are ALL facing the other direction, not just half of them...

I just think that the observation was one of paranoia. OMG all those cops in one place and half with their backs to the door *GASP*

There was also a comment about how closely together their vehicles were parked...like if they all had to leave for an emergency they couldn't do it at the same time. The thought they would all leave 6 wide and not be one behind the other anyway is one that wouldn't cross someone being paranoid's mind. Guns and paranoia can go both ways both for and against. At least it can in my book.
 
The OP thought there should be a protocol for how many uniformed officers may eat lunch together because he is worried they are a "high level target".
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The point is whether all should be taking lunch at the same time, at the same location and at the same place.

I can tell you that every LEO I talked to at the range today, was dumfounded.

I don't have a dog in the fight and the last thing I want to see or hear about on the news is some whack seizing an opportunity to wreak havoc.

How much crime is really spur of the moment? I don't know and I don't want to find out the hard way.

You would need to see the layout of this place to see just how easy it would be for someone with a shotgun to take them all out.

The mention of the bikes is just that the number of them in the same place spoke volumes about what was inside.

Bad guys are going to do bad things. There is no valid reason to make it easy for them.

I am not an LEO and never have been, but I make it a point to know what is going on around me.

Perhaps they were far more aware than I thought. I am also aware that safety in numbers is sometimes an illusion. . .sometimes you are a more inviting target.

This particular restaurant has a carry out area that is entered through the back with full view of the dining area and anyone with double O buckshot could have taken everyone of them.

They could have picked a different pair of tables and changed the landscape much in their favor.

I am sure those officers in Lakewood never thought that a simple few minutes of working on their laptops would be the last thing they ever did.

I don't know how many of the responders are LEOs now or have been in the past, but no one I talked to at the range today thought what those guys did was street smart.
 
The issue that I have run in to is that there is no "correct" answer for everyone...

If the officers try to pick a place to sit, so they have visability to watch others, and kind of have that "Im watching you folks" look while they eat their meal, even if they dont mean to offend others, there will be complaints because the officer is standoffish, or is considered a bit hostile, unfriendly, or intimidating to those people the officer serves and is ultimately responsible too.

If the officers "pretend" not to notice and go about their own business, some will be offended because they are not aware enough, seem aloof, etc.

Personally, I bring something to eat with me, or try to catch the drive through when its slow, and go back to the office and eat. But there again, one could argue, that I am keeping distance from, and not being "in" the community itself by eating in the office.

As I said there is no "correct" answer for everyone...

Thats even without getting in to the "what if's" of a person trying to do harm to an officer.

Edit to add....

As to the number of officers...Well, there again it can be a sore subject. Take for example having a parade, which requires most of the officers at my department, since its a small town, with not that many officers. We used to go eat as a group before/after a parade/event/etc, at a restaurant, once we were off the clock, not paid, but some complaints came in about the "number" of officers "working" never mind the fact that we were off the clock, and had a event that required more then the ordinary level of officers for a normal day.

Once that was stopped, we got a couple of questions about, "why cant I find an officer to ask when the parade/event/etc starts like we were able to?"

While I see both sides, I dont see a satisfactory answer that will please both sides equally.

Geetarman, I hope you do not take my reply in offense, just sharing what I have experienced in the past.
 
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The thread was started by an observation that eight police officers taking lunch at the same table and at the same time is a recipe for disaster.
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Correct. The proper way to do it would be 1 officer eats (while in the prone), the additional officers spaced at 5 to 10 meter intervals in the prone in a rough 360. Once one is finished he low crawls to the trash can, dumps his tray and low crawls to replace an officer...who then low crawls to the center of the 360 so he can eat.

Once finished they all bound overwatch back to their motorcycles. The end.
 
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