paratrooper
New member
Where were the first five Presidents of The United States born ????
poll- a foriegn born president?
- Thread starter 9mmsnoopy
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No, it is different. The FFs expressed their reasons for both parts of the Constitution. Guns were long term, Presidential birth more immediate. I understand that they treated them the same in the document, but discussed the two very differently. There was such great concern about losing the government to Tories that they put the law where it wasn't easily changed.
Para, I would hope that was obvious. This country had been occupied for generations by the time the first President took the oath.
No. When a foriegn-born person immigrates to another, and then comes to power, there are simply too many complications. Irrational, foolhardy alliegances to potentially dangerous nations. The founding fathers had a good idea, and we should not abandon throw it away for the politically correct opinion of the time, or the merits of a few exceptional individuals.
Chinatown, Little Italy, etc. were and are microcosims of other cultures and nations because of the discrimination they faced here. Most don't want to die at the hands of a lynch mob.
"Becoming American" is an interesting idea. Many move here willing and able to embrace the political concepts of America, but wanting to celebrate the customs of their homelands. I see no issue with that.
"Becoming American" is an interesting idea. Many move here willing and able to embrace the political concepts of America, but wanting to celebrate the customs of their homelands. I see no issue with that.
Sir William
New member
Simple. The elected officials should be born of the country. They should NOT have citizenship, confused loyalties to or hold any other countries passport. USA made. I don't believe in mexican-, polish-, african- or any other set aside ethnic groups. We are all Americans and the only flag I pledge allegiance to is red, white and blue. I didn't hear anybody shouting Polish-America, Irish-America or Mexican-America post-9/11. USA, USA, USA was what I heard.
novus collectus
Moderator
If someone is born in Guam, which is not completly part of America, they can become president. I may be wrong with my statement earlier (after all I don't even know what an EEC passport is) but to me it sounds like the situation is almost the same.
There have been many foreign born Americans that I would trust with my nations security but the president is in control of the military and all those nukes. The majority of them become great citizens, but I am worried about those few who's loyalty still resides with their former homeland. I may be rationalizing with prejudice, stereotyping, and unwarranted fear, but at this moment I don't want to change that part of the contitution without decades of debate (an expression). Changing it because of a popular movement, whim, or political advantage for one party (any party) will always get us in trouble (IMHO).
Mike Irwin,
I partially agree with you...on some things. But, firstly, the immigrants who first came here from Germany, Ireland, or wherever, had an intense desire to be AMERICANS. They shared the same vision and desires as those already here. They struggled to learn english and were embarrassed when they tripped over a word or a sentence. They made DAMN sure that their children learned english from DAY ONE. They celebrated the Fourth of July with equal respect, enthusiasm, and honor as those who fought the British themselves. In short, their allegiance was to the USA. They considered themselves Americans, and indeed they were.
If you have firsthand knowledge of how most Mexican immigrants (especially the illegals) live in this country, you know that their loyality is NOT to the USA, it's to Mother Mexico. It's exemplified by almost everything they do and don't do. Hopefully it's a generational thing. Hopefully the children of these people will adapt and assimilate, but the parents are not encouraging that, overall.
I partially agree with you...on some things. But, firstly, the immigrants who first came here from Germany, Ireland, or wherever, had an intense desire to be AMERICANS. They shared the same vision and desires as those already here. They struggled to learn english and were embarrassed when they tripped over a word or a sentence. They made DAMN sure that their children learned english from DAY ONE. They celebrated the Fourth of July with equal respect, enthusiasm, and honor as those who fought the British themselves. In short, their allegiance was to the USA. They considered themselves Americans, and indeed they were.
If you have firsthand knowledge of how most Mexican immigrants (especially the illegals) live in this country, you know that their loyality is NOT to the USA, it's to Mother Mexico. It's exemplified by almost everything they do and don't do. Hopefully it's a generational thing. Hopefully the children of these people will adapt and assimilate, but the parents are not encouraging that, overall.
XavierBreath
New member
No.
I feel it is better to accept a mediocre natural citizen for four years than to take the risk of another country or entity guiding our country by proxy. I know the chance is remote, but what is next? Kofi Annan as President? Don't think it could not happen.
While I admire our immigrants that do well, and realize that many do much better than natural born Americans, for me it is not a question of rights for individuals, but a question of risk to national security.
I feel it is better to accept a mediocre natural citizen for four years than to take the risk of another country or entity guiding our country by proxy. I know the chance is remote, but what is next? Kofi Annan as President? Don't think it could not happen.
While I admire our immigrants that do well, and realize that many do much better than natural born Americans, for me it is not a question of rights for individuals, but a question of risk to national security.
TJ,
I don't know who's experience you're borrowing from talking about the behavior of the European immigrants. They did become "good Americans", but did so clumped in enclaves that went by names like "Germantown". The Norwegians in MN spoke more Norwegian then anything else for 100 years. You can go to Chicago and still find plenty of people who speak Polish in the kitchen and celebrate Kasimir S. Pulaski Day.
On the other hand, one of the larger ethnic groups I've observed in the military are Latino/Hispanic. They are a fiercely patriotic group.
I sense you comments are based on a lack of real experience with immigrant groups outside of Mexicans. But in reality, the behavior is all very similar.
I don't know who's experience you're borrowing from talking about the behavior of the European immigrants. They did become "good Americans", but did so clumped in enclaves that went by names like "Germantown". The Norwegians in MN spoke more Norwegian then anything else for 100 years. You can go to Chicago and still find plenty of people who speak Polish in the kitchen and celebrate Kasimir S. Pulaski Day.
On the other hand, one of the larger ethnic groups I've observed in the military are Latino/Hispanic. They are a fiercely patriotic group.
I sense you comments are based on a lack of real experience with immigrant groups outside of Mexicans. But in reality, the behavior is all very similar.
Mike Irwin
Staff
"Where were the first five Presidents of The United States born ????"
In what would become the United States.
All were born in North America.
Washington, Virginia Colony, 1732
Adams, Massachusetts Bay Colony, 1735
Jefferson, Virginia Colony, 1743
Madison, Virginia Colony, 1751
Monroe, Virginia Colony, 1758
The first president to be born in an post 1776 United States was, I believe, Martin van Buren, in 1782.
In what would become the United States.
All were born in North America.
Washington, Virginia Colony, 1732
Adams, Massachusetts Bay Colony, 1735
Jefferson, Virginia Colony, 1743
Madison, Virginia Colony, 1751
Monroe, Virginia Colony, 1758
The first president to be born in an post 1776 United States was, I believe, Martin van Buren, in 1782.
Handy,
My evidence is anecdotal from my grandmother, whose parents were both first generation German immigrants. She said that she and her siblings were NEVER allowed to speak German in public; if they did, they were spanked for it. She said that they did indeed "enclave" themselves with other Germans, but similar rules were enforced by her friend's parents in regards to english in public. They waved the American flag at Independence Day parades just as high and proudly as anyone, and they thanked God for the gifts and opportunity that this land provided them. There was no question as to where their loyalty was.
I do NOT see that with Mexican immigrants. They speak spanish constantly and expect - demand! - that ATM's, radio, and the newspapers have spanish available. They celebrate Cinco de Mayo and not the 4th of July. They have Mexican flags all over their property and vehicles. Theirs is an attitude of entitlement.
My evidence is anecdotal from my grandmother, whose parents were both first generation German immigrants. She said that she and her siblings were NEVER allowed to speak German in public; if they did, they were spanked for it. She said that they did indeed "enclave" themselves with other Germans, but similar rules were enforced by her friend's parents in regards to english in public. They waved the American flag at Independence Day parades just as high and proudly as anyone, and they thanked God for the gifts and opportunity that this land provided them. There was no question as to where their loyalty was.
I do NOT see that with Mexican immigrants. They speak spanish constantly and expect - demand! - that ATM's, radio, and the newspapers have spanish available. They celebrate Cinco de Mayo and not the 4th of July. They have Mexican flags all over their property and vehicles. Theirs is an attitude of entitlement.
Well,
As far as the Germans of old, I only know what my Grandma told me. I wasn't there, so I can't defend it any more than saying that she was a model American who flew the flag at her family's farm every day for all of her 97 years. I believe her stories were accurate.
The modern Mexican immigrant part is different. I've made my opinions known, as have you. We are but two people with differing thoughts and experiences, and that doesn't add up to anything conclusive. If a thread were started on this forum seeking other people's opinions on this topic, whose opinion, yours or mine, would likely be supported? The results would help validate SOMEbody's opinion. Wanna try it? We could do it, but I think we both know what the results would be.
This isn't a race thing, as many half-cocked people are eager to label it. It's a patriotic thing. It's a "what's good for America?" thing.
As far as the Germans of old, I only know what my Grandma told me. I wasn't there, so I can't defend it any more than saying that she was a model American who flew the flag at her family's farm every day for all of her 97 years. I believe her stories were accurate.
The modern Mexican immigrant part is different. I've made my opinions known, as have you. We are but two people with differing thoughts and experiences, and that doesn't add up to anything conclusive. If a thread were started on this forum seeking other people's opinions on this topic, whose opinion, yours or mine, would likely be supported? The results would help validate SOMEbody's opinion. Wanna try it? We could do it, but I think we both know what the results would be.
This isn't a race thing, as many half-cocked people are eager to label it. It's a patriotic thing. It's a "what's good for America?" thing.
Avid Concealer
New member
It depends how long they lived here in America. Do they honor their old countries cultural standards or have they adopted ours? Exactly how "Americanized would these foreign born American citizens be? I would rather a native born American to be the president, but if they lived in another country for say ummm the first 3 or 4 years of their life (nothing to significantly impact their views in regards to our American views) and then moved to America, I would see them to be just as eligible as any native born American and would not think twice about voting him/her to be president if I find them politically acceptable.
Tamara:
I agree with you, I think that they would be alot better then any President in my short history.
The reason that I say No is due to if the government and the states start to mess with the Constitution, even something that may be for the better of the US, they won't stop there. Give an inch and the government takes 100's of miles, which has been proven time and time again.
I say that we just leave the Constitution and Bill of Rights as is (with the exception of amendments 11+). We've seen what happens when the People have a Bill of Rights and then the government adds a Right for the government (16th amendment is the most known).
Nothing against Oleg and Marko, I wished they had been born in America and had the chance to become President. But, if we start messing with the Constitution and Bill of Rights (even more then before) then it will only be a matter of time before The People is replaced with The Government.
Wayne
I agree with you, I think that they would be alot better then any President in my short history.
The reason that I say No is due to if the government and the states start to mess with the Constitution, even something that may be for the better of the US, they won't stop there. Give an inch and the government takes 100's of miles, which has been proven time and time again.
I say that we just leave the Constitution and Bill of Rights as is (with the exception of amendments 11+). We've seen what happens when the People have a Bill of Rights and then the government adds a Right for the government (16th amendment is the most known).
Nothing against Oleg and Marko, I wished they had been born in America and had the chance to become President. But, if we start messing with the Constitution and Bill of Rights (even more then before) then it will only be a matter of time before The People is replaced with The Government.
Wayne
Mike Irwin
Staff
"I partially agree with you...on some things. But, firstly, the immigrants who first came here from Germany, Ireland, or wherever, had an intense desire to be AMERICANS."
That's the case for SOME of those individuals. Many simply had the intense desire to get someplace where opportunities were better than they were in the old country.
If every one of those immigrants had a resounding desire to be an AMERICAN, you wouldn't have seen the rise of ethic communities where the native tongue remained the dominant method of communication for generations.
In roughly 1809, a small village in Germany picked up en masse and moved to Central Pennsylvania. 100 years later, my Grandfather, born in 1904 in that relocated village in Juniata County, Pennsylvania, spoke GERMAN in the home, and went to a village school where German was the dominant language.
Grandpa said that his Grandfather, the son of two of the original immigrants, NEVER learned English.
Similar situations were repeated right through the 20th century.
Your point about the loyalty of many immigrants is a particularly interesting one, but that's no different now than it was at any point in this country's history. It's not at all uncommon for newly arrived immigrants, in any time from any country, to maintain strong loyalties to "the old country."
If an immigrant in years past immediately became a loyal American the second he hopped off the boat, concerns about the loyalty of those of Spanish descent wouldn't have been an issue during the Spanish-American War, the loyalty of Germans and Austrians wouldn't have been an issue during World War I, and concerns about the loyalty of Germans, Italians, and Japanese, even even those who were second, third, and even fourth generation American, with no ties to the native countries other than name or race, wouldn't have been an issue.
That's the case for SOME of those individuals. Many simply had the intense desire to get someplace where opportunities were better than they were in the old country.
If every one of those immigrants had a resounding desire to be an AMERICAN, you wouldn't have seen the rise of ethic communities where the native tongue remained the dominant method of communication for generations.
In roughly 1809, a small village in Germany picked up en masse and moved to Central Pennsylvania. 100 years later, my Grandfather, born in 1904 in that relocated village in Juniata County, Pennsylvania, spoke GERMAN in the home, and went to a village school where German was the dominant language.
Grandpa said that his Grandfather, the son of two of the original immigrants, NEVER learned English.
Similar situations were repeated right through the 20th century.
Your point about the loyalty of many immigrants is a particularly interesting one, but that's no different now than it was at any point in this country's history. It's not at all uncommon for newly arrived immigrants, in any time from any country, to maintain strong loyalties to "the old country."
If an immigrant in years past immediately became a loyal American the second he hopped off the boat, concerns about the loyalty of those of Spanish descent wouldn't have been an issue during the Spanish-American War, the loyalty of Germans and Austrians wouldn't have been an issue during World War I, and concerns about the loyalty of Germans, Italians, and Japanese, even even those who were second, third, and even fourth generation American, with no ties to the native countries other than name or race, wouldn't have been an issue.
Mike Irwin
Staff
I just thought of something I saw some months ago on History Channel...
Fleet Admiral Chester Nimitz grew up in Fredericksburg, Texas, a town founded by German immigrants, many of whom moved from the same towns at the same time.
Many of the people in his town still spoke German well into the 20th century.
What REALLY killed the German ethnic enclaves in the United States?
World War I, where anti-German sentiment ran VERY high in many parts of the country.
Fleet Admiral Chester Nimitz grew up in Fredericksburg, Texas, a town founded by German immigrants, many of whom moved from the same towns at the same time.
Many of the people in his town still spoke German well into the 20th century.
What REALLY killed the German ethnic enclaves in the United States?
World War I, where anti-German sentiment ran VERY high in many parts of the country.
But what of the ones that came in with them that had no desire to be American. It is not too farfetched to see other countries sending in people to get into positions of power.
Also, I have no problem with immigrants celebrating their holidays. As long as they are not forcing anyone else to, or making a fuss about American holidays.
novus collectus
Moderator
Henry Kissinger was one of the most powerful men in our country at one time. He was responsible for much of our national security and was trusted enough to get the job in the first place. I assume from his German sounding accent that he was born and raised in Germany.
But I will (tediously) repeat that it is only when a foreign born citizen is in control of the one part of government that can throw a successfull coup is where the problem arises. Most other aspects of the presidency are not a major concern because of the seperation of powers. It is just when they have total control of the military.
But I will (tediously) repeat that it is only when a foreign born citizen is in control of the one part of government that can throw a successfull coup is where the problem arises. Most other aspects of the presidency are not a major concern because of the seperation of powers. It is just when they have total control of the military.