Politics ends a friendship.

[DasBoot]

We've been GREAT friends for over 30yrs.
We tore up Brazil together.
Spent our early adulthood doggin' the ladies every weekend.
He was my Best Man.
Though, in all that time, we never spoke politics.
We were usually having too much fun!
In the last few years though, our conversations drifted towards politics and this is where he revealed his leftwing leanings.
You know, the usual......thinking how great the Michael Moore movie was, Bush "stole' the election,"911" was OUR fault, etc.
It seemed like everytime I would say anything about America, he would immediately jump in withsomething to put this country down.
When I asked him "Do you love this country or what?" he repied "I think it sucks!"
When asked what countries he though were 'better", he says France, Sweden, Norway and a few others.
Never got his answer as to why he doesn't just move there!
Due to a combination of shock and discomfort, I let that remark pass.
But I agonized over it for sometime.
Last night, while on the subject of Moslem atrocities around the globe, He quickly came to their defence saying the murders, car bombings, etc are their way of fighting because they are "poor" and don't have an army!!
I couldn't believe what I was hearing!!!
The final straw was when he said "The United States is just as bad as Al Quieda(spelling?).
I angrily told him I have nothing to say to someone that feels that way and told him never to call me again.
Too bad!
While the USA isn't perfect, I don't believe there is ANY country ANYWHERE that is better, or has done more good throughout the world.
If we were so bad, they'd be flying American flags in Japan, Germany and several other places.
And to actually compare us to those murderous thugs that would happily behead my wife and child, blow up bus loads of people and fly planes into our bldgs!!!
That was just too much!
I have a baby boy and I'm going to raise him to love this country, pimples and all.
In my heart, I'd be a hypocrite associating with someone who, in my eyes, is basically an enemy of this country.
I think that priciples trump friendship.
Family, religion and country.
All worth standing up for.
Would any of you continue a friendship with someone that openly hated this country?
And if so, what would you base that friendship on?
Could you just ignore it and still feel the same about this person?

 

[VeT|Us]

I know what you're talking about

Long post, sorry! have to went.


I have 2 best friends, and we've been best friends from the first day of school when we were 6, and we still are today. That makes it 14 years of friendship.
I consider them family, as family can be both of choise and blood.
Up 'till now its been pretty much like this; Im the "crazy" (We'll get to that part) survivalist who likes to shoot recreationally, has some food and water stocked, and enjoy litterature like Lucifers Hammer, EFAD, Lights Out, The Stand and Red Storm Rising. Yeah, I read alot. My other best friend is somewhat like me, only, he isnt. He likes to shoot, yet owns no guns.
He belives in beeing prepared, yet takes no action towards it.
Still, he's a good shot, and, if something happens, pretty much the one person I can really trust. On politics, me and him see eye to eye on everything.

Then, theres the third guy. We've all been best friend for 14 years,
but last week I found out really how different we are.
It started out as an argument which quickly became a fight about self-defence. He blabbered about how "insane" it is that in the US, you can carry a handgun for protection. He continued to claim that all handguns should be banned, because they are "evil", and no one needs them. And for that matter, no one needs those "evil Ak47's and M16's" either.
Besided, if you really need to defend yourself, you should train karate according to him, a handgun is no good. Its just evil.

It's no need for me to tell you word for word, you know the drill, I told him about the banning of handguns in the UK and how crime had risen, in which he countered with the allmighty argument: "See! Handguns are evil!".

I then asked him, If someone charged at you with a knife, what would you rather have, two empty hands, or a handgun? He answered "If I had a handgun, he would kill me for sure! And besides, if I just give him my money, He wont hurt me!"

I then asked him what he would do if he saw his little sister get raped by thugs, and what he would rather have, a knife/gun or two empty hands.
He said that his sister would never get raped, (must be awesome to control fate with your mind) and that he would never ever under any circumstance use deadly force against someone, because if you kill someone in selfdefence, you'll be "ruined for life because of the emotional scars you'll get."

He then went on about what a fanatic I am, because I choose to carry a knife with me if I have to walk through bad areas at night, and how crazy I am that support self-defense. I'm also crazy because I would actually kill another person in self-defense rather han be killed myself.

The argument ended with him first trying to semi-insult me, pointing at my beard, and making "Bush"-remarks. I said, "dont you have anything factual to say? I've been debating with facts and statistics, all you have is a fear of guns"

He asked me to respect his opinion, I said that I could not respect an ignoramus like him, when he might as well have debated that 2 + 2 equals 5.

He asked me why I even cared, and I told him that he's my best friend, and I love him, and when you're beeing so incredibly blind and naive, it may get you killed, and I dont want to see that happen.

The thing that really hurt, were the fact that I realised, that I cant trust one of my best friends when I may need him the most. If I saw someone attacking him, I'd use whatever I had to save him, a rifle, knife, baseball bat, or just go in unarmed. I know now that he would never ever do the same thing for me. He'd just stand there, watching me die if it came to hit, waiting for the police and an ambulance. And that hurt.


edit: By the way, we are Norwegians.

 

[Odd-Job]

"We've been GREAT friends for over 30yrs". I would say that depends on whether he is serious or not.Sometimes people say things they don't really mean.There are many people who are angry with this country and it's president.Some are serious about what they say,some are just blowing off steam.Maybe your friend is just blowing off steam.

 

[DasBoot]

Vet,
There are some people that, no matter how obvious the answer, they will dance around it and totally try to change the subject.
What kind of person would allow themselves, or a loved one, get hurt and NOT try to ehlp them???
You pal's got some "issues".
But it hurts to find this stuff out, doesn't it.
OJ,
He's quite literate as far as political readings.
During our exchange, he asked if I had read so & so, or so & so.
He also said I'm politically ignorant because I get my news from mainstream media.
I countered that there isn't a writer alive that could get me to believe that our beautiful nation is on the same level as Al Qaida.
It just blew me away!

 

[Rich Lucibella]

I honestly believe individual passion over politics is so red hot because our view of The State is a repressed metaphor for our relationship with parents:

- Those who are unindividuated from Mom and Dad believe The State knows best and wish to be taken care of by it. They expect The State to micro-manage others behaviors also. They idealize their parents. They tend to be Democrats.

- Those who are non-matured as to the fact that their Parents were simply human and fraught with all manner of human frailty, demonstrate an angry distrust of their fellow man and tend to be Republican or go the other way toward Anarchist. Like the unindividuated, they want The State to micro-manage the behaviors of other citizens.....just on different issues than the Democrats.

- Those who are fully individuated and enjoy a relatively healthy relationship with their parents (dead or alive) tend to be neither Republican nor Democrat. They neither want to be taken care of by The State nor are they much interested in the personal behaviors of their fellow citizens. They want less interference on all levels; and they recognize that this means less interference for everybody. These are the true Conservatives.

Someday, I'm gonna research this thoroughly by looking at the parental relationship of pure Liberals (like Ted Kennedy) vs pure Neocons (like Dubya) vs pure Conservatives (like Reagan). Then I'm gonna write a book!
Rich

 

[DasBoot]

I've never made the connection between individual political thought and one's relationship w/his/her parents, but I'd venture to say that that relationship effects all of us, to some degree, in our thoughts on just about everything.
Whether subliminally or overt.
I haven't spoken to them for a while, but I was/am on excellent terms with this guys parents, and would have lengthy discussions on various topics with his mom.
Christian(Catholic) upbringing, successful siblings, etc.
He's also a very compassionate human being and, aside from this incident, would've done anything for me, and I him.
But how can you ignore hating your country?
And comparing it to those animals!
Could I still be friends with, say, a child molester?
Bad analogy maybe, but you get the idea.
How deeply will you allow someone to go against your political/patriotic beliefs before you cut them loose?
And no matter WHAT your political persuasion, the common thread should be a love for your country, don't you think?

 

[Clanky]

I had a pretty good friend for a number of years and we parted when he said: “Sometimes the government has to protect the people from themselves.”

I replied that was a great recipe for tyranny. He overreacted and said that I should, and I paraphrase, go reproduce with myself.

The argument was on then.

I made an attempt at reconciliation and he rebuffed it. I consider it his loss of a great friend (me!) and moved on.

Later on I found out that he had some girlfriend problems at the time of the argument and completely wigged out in other areas too.

Nevertheless, once my attempt to reestablish the friendship was ignored, that’s it for me.

So, if the opportunity arises, take the high road. If he decides to stay mad, move on. He’ll regret it later, not you.

 

[Coinneach]

Rich, there maybe something in that. You know my politics. As it happens, I despise my "parents."

 

[Wildalaska]

Someday, I'm gonna research this thoroughly by looking at the parental relationship of pure Liberals (like Ted Kennedy)

Well considering that teddy's daddy was an fascist psuedo aristocrat with a criminal background and delusions of granduer you can move on to the next issue

WildlikefatherlikesonAlaska

 

[Dave P]

"We tore up Brazil together.
Spent our early adulthood doggin' the ladies every weekend.
He was my Best Man.
Though, in all that time, we never spoke politics.
We were usually having too much fun"

Speaking from experience, it is easy when you are young to hang out with folks that like the same things, as superficial as those activites may be. But as we get older and more mature, we realize those past relationships were very shallow, maybe just based on having a good time!

Sounds like you grew up, opened your eyes, and saw your friend for the first time - good for you!

Time to move on, I would say.

 

[garryc]

He continued to claim that all handguns should be banned, because they are "evil", and no one needs them.

The only thing that can be "EVIL" is someone with a conscious mind.

Besided, if you really need to defend yourself, you should train karate according to him

So my old disabled uncle should be a karate master, or he just deserves to die.

"If I had a handgun, he would kill me for sure! And besides, if I just give him my money, He wont hurt me!"

Take it from a corrections officer, when a criminal gets control of you there is no telling what he'll do just for "kicks".

"If I had a handgun, he would kill me for sure! And besides, if I just give him my money, He wont hurt me!"

Actually, when he see’s you are armed he will have to re-evaluate his risk assessment, and then will likely bail.

He said that his sister would never get raped

I wonder how many women who have been raped thought it would never happen to them, likely most of them.

and that he would never ever under any circumstance use deadly force against someone

,

What’s funny is how fast that position tends to change when the hypothetical becomes reality.

because if you kill someone in selfdefence, you'll be "ruined for life because of the emotional scars you'll get."

Scars, yes, ruined for life, at least you are alive and most people are resilient enough to adjust.

I'm also crazy because I would actually kill another person in self-defense rather han be killed myself.

Who is he to place value on your life? And who is he to say you have less of a right to defend your life than an animal.

I said, "dont you have anything factual to say? I've been debating with facts and statistics, all you have is a fear of guns"

At that point he probably realized that he was lacking in the logic arena, talking with pure emotion.

The argument ended with him first trying to semi-insult me, pointing at my beard, and making "Bush"-remarks.

Typical for Liberals to go to personal insults when their argument fails.

The thing that really hurt, were the fact that I realised, that I cant trust one of my best friends when I may need him the most. If I saw someone attacking him, I'd use whatever I had to save him, a rifle, knife, baseball bat, or just go in unarmed. I know now that he would never ever do the same thing for me. He'd just stand there, watching me die if it came to hit, waiting for the police and an ambulance. And that hurt.

A man I can't trust with my back isn't really a friend, just an acquaintance.

 

[Eghad]

So how do these two manage to do it?

To me friendship is something that transcends politics and religion. A friend is someone you know that has your back and you can count on when it hits the fan no matter what his politics are religion are.

 

[VeT|Us]

Garryc: I brought up all those valid points.
In which he responded with, amongst others;

"Why don't you just move to the USA!"

"You're such a gun fanatic!"


You know what was the real kicker though?
"I know what I'm talking about, I've seen Bowling For Columbine and
Lord Of War!!"

I really expected more of him.

 

[M14fan]

So Sad

"I know what I'm talking about, I've seen Bowling For Columbine and
Lord Of War!!"

So sad that yet another mind has fallen under the spell of Hollywood. The real tragedy is that popular media for entertainment AND news all seem to have the same political bent. Since children in this country are so deluged with media of all sorts, it is a wonder all of them are not growing up with the same mindset as your friend. I don't know how the media portrays things in your country but suspect it is at least similar.

 

[Monkeyleg]

Eghad, thanks for injecting that opinion.

I met my closest friend in homeroom class in 1965. We've been tight ever since.

I matured politically; he stayed a liberal only because he doesn't pay much attention to issues.

If we have serious discussions about politics, I always win. If we have battles over politics, he has to resort to name-calling.

At that point, I change the subject.

If I based my relationships and entertainment on politics alone, I wouldn't have any friends, I'd be divorced, and I'd be bored.

 

[Pointer]

Eldridge Cleaver (Ex Black Panther Officer) once said the same leftwing propaganda things.
(Back in the 60's)

He ran from the law in the United States and knocked around Egypt and several European contries for a few years...

He decided to come home to the US and "face the music" and publically stated that he had decided he was wrong, and that the US is the finest nation in the world.

I was there sitting about 25 feet in front of him when he said it!

********************************************************
SOLUTION
Send your "friend" on an extended tour OUTSIDE the US and he must get a job and work his way from location to location and not spend less than or more than 3 months in any one country which must include Dacar, Egypt, Greece, France, Italy, England and Spain.

If he comes back to the US for longer than a vacation-type visit, he must pay you back for the airline tickets...

The "gutless wonder" will probably not accept the bargain...
Cuz' that's the LIBERAL way...

 

[sm]

I've been firing folks a l-o-n-g time.

Fellow that sired me - fired him first.
I assited in raising the 3 younger sibs he sired, and Mom.

Not sure what happened, he served 30+ years in the Nat'l Guard Reserves, and my early memories was being a self reliant fellow.

I had to bite my lip, living under the same roof as he for a bit, then one day the baby of us 4 was about 3, and the fellow that sired did not come home again...not be gone and come back - this time never.

I was beaten and my books, book I earned money to buy, Such as Civil Disobedience, Atlas Shrugged, Animal Farm - he burned, he beat me and made me start the fire. Understand I was really young, coke bottles only brought 3 cents, and the biggest yard I mowed only paid 75 cents. Some of that money was given to me for special gift days, or ...I won Civil Disobedience shooting a .22 rifle as a prize. I had good Mentors...I think they were more excited than I was on winning that book.

I got bigger and Mentors & Elders, other folks like the ones I was apprenticing under - well I was gonna take a shot at making this "relationship work" - if not for me maybe the other sibs.
I tried, I really did. When a person puts you in harms way, I mean in serious harms way. You fire them and let them go.

There is a term my Jewish bosses used I apprenticed under that meant that person was dead in one's eyes.

Sibs? Fired them too. Had to.
I paid for the lessons and training for a Sib to get CCW, even bought the gun.
I mean I was the one that taught them how to tie shoes, and use a cane pole to fish , how to cast a Zebco 33, and ...

He did not get a CCW, that gun was unloaded and the ammo separate when his daughter, my neice was attacked by a dog in his yard.
Cell phone could not get a signal, he is standing there upset with a phone...not doing nothing for his 3 year old daughter.

Older fella , neighbor runs out with a bat, or axe handle - I forget and stopped that threat.

I was "not happy" to say the least. I do not care if he is a deacon in a church, and he and his "deacon's wife" ...I let my "not happy" be expressed, loud and clear and in front of his "family" and in no uncertain terms.

Funny, he can take care of his "church family" - never checks on his mom - except to come over and steal stuff that is "got a needy church family".

I put a stop to that too.

Friends- Fired a bunch of them, including firearm folks I shot competition with.
"Gubmint needs to have gun control except for my clay gun and the one I duck hunt with" - Sorry Man- that dawg does not hunt with me.


I have one person I recogize with same last name as mine, everyone else I fired with that name or kin to that name. I keep tabs on mom, that is it.

I am a bit "selective" as to whom gets into my circle of "friends".

I made new friends here on TFL and THR. Heck I have closer friends thru/ because of than I do locally.

I am an "Adopted Uncle" to many, some were kids, seems they got older on me, but new one's and other folks "adopt" me and these are family to me.

Mentors & Elders up and died on me, other moved away, good freinds moved and got one now has maybe 2 weeks to live before they die.

There was a "family gathering" at mom's. For her sake I gritted my teeth, and attended. Some "high as a kite" bums comes into the yard and I go into "cautious mode". Seems they were real interested in another niece, and nephew. I handled the situation - but in doing so my CCW was seen by two folks, by same last name as mine.

If I had not been in attendance....?

Folks going for cell phones and hollering to the heavens...nothing wrong with that, just it did not seem to stopping an immediate threat. Stern voice and other stuff do better. Never bring a Buck 110 and pc of conduit to a Axe handle shindig, especially when the fellow with the Axe Handle has a "ace in the hole". Always liked old axe handles, must be how raised...

Later...

Deacon Boy and Deacon Wife come over with another sib...and clean out their mom's garage and have a tour of her house. Seems they had a "family in need" and the other was having a garage sale.

Mom had earmarked what SHE wanted grandkids to have as far as jewlery, and the oil lamp she used as a little girl, he mom's stuff...

Mom in mid seventies, returns home and not feeling anyway, just gets sick, she thought she had been robbed [ well she had], I mean in tears and I thought she was going to go into shock.

I called a buddy of mine, a real friend. I did not call, we just arrived - and I did not ask, I just got back what was mom's and what she had earmarked.


Innocents Betrayed - Rich remembers when he asked us here on TFL to assist. I did as many others did in donating to having this Movie made.
I bought a dozen copies at first too.

I bought another 6 or 8 the next time, and these I sent to Neices and Nephews. Granted some were really little , still I had sent Books and all to THEM, not parents.

Parents had tossed thiers into a fire, never even viewed them, the books too.

Older niece is about 15 now, when 12 I sent her money because she wanted to take a martial arts class. That money...again a "setting where folks gather to worship" needed the money more, and her mom stole that money and donated it for that "reason".

Niece was signed up, and no money - I sent the money this time direct to the instructor. I mean just a special two week class for girls to be aware, and not be a victim and what they can do. Her track coach suggested it, and it was a great two week class. There is hope for her.


Nice thing about firing family and friends - you don't get invited to gatherings, and you don't have to buy anything for "special gift giving days".

Me sensitive about this? Nope. Now I did make a choice to assist battered women [with and without kids ]in shooting and self reliance, assist the elderly , and physically limited. Just passing forward as I was passed to.

To get out of one's self - be there for others. If a person sits on the pity pot - all they get are rings around the posterior.

I use energies to best use...


Rich - write the book. Check into whether Flouride has some effect , along with TeeVee and remote controls as well.

I can't and don't have resentments. I reserve the right to fire folks though.


Steve

 

[DasBoot]

Dave P,
Sadly, I guess you're right!
Eghad,
I too used to believe that a true friend was a friend for life, no matter what.
However, isn't there a point where their beliefs in SOMETHING are so vastly opposed to yours that you don't think you can be friends AND be true to yourself?
And I mean something on a much deeper level than you LOVE the '64 Mustang and he feels they were all JUNK!
To hate your own country, to me, is just such a disgusting thing.
And hypocritical if that person is still residing in that country.
Regardless of whether he's "got your back " or not, could you remain friends with someone that champions the cause of a group of people that, amongst other atrocities, horribly tortured and mutilated 2 US Marines?
At what point do you say "ENOUGH!"?
Pointer,
I've always been smitten by the obvious hypocrisy of all those American "intellectuals", socialist/communists etc that extoll the virtues of living under those various forms of gov't YET, NOT ONE has ever lived, or has the balls to live, in a country that practices that form of gov't!
What's airfare to France anyway?

 

[Epyon]

Man of two worlds...

I'm fairly neutral to anyone's ideology, by the First Ammendment they have the right to believe what they want and say what they want. Just because I might not fully agree with their politics doesn't mean I won't be their friend. I've got friends who are far left, friends who are far right yet they all treat each other with respect. I've debated both sides many times before and never lost their friendship, so that leads me to wonder if these are my examples of what I believe in my politics does that make me a Democrap or a Retardlican? (Yeah, I hate BOTH parties equally, independent all the way! Screw the party line, it's time for a nation that is truly balanced in its policies instead of one that is easily bought out by big business and greed. Because when corporations take over, it's just one step closer to facism.) And the examples are as follows:

I support gun control. (As in keeping both hands on the gun at all times and always hitting my target! And personally, if they really followed the Second Ammendment they should allow civilians to be able to own full autos without all the red tape.)

I am pro-choice. (Because I believe it should be a woman's decision, and not to sound cold, but there are already 6.6 billion people on the planet; to have more coming in would just strain things to be worse than they're already getting it also just promotes more poverty because the families can't get the support they need to live good lives in most countries. However, I have heard valid arguments from pro-lifers who give me a more non-religious reason as to why they choose to be that way.)

I support gay marrige. (If the sanctity of marrige truly was sacred, why is our divorce rate so high? Plus who's business is it to say who you can and can't love? The religious reason is invalid, because it violates the seperation of church and state.)

I believe in right to die. (If a person is suffering such as from terminal illness and they can no longer function, they are not living, they are existing. If that person chooses to die, that decision should be between said person and their beliefs.)

I do believe that people who come to America MUST learn English. (It is unfair for immigrants of other countries who do take the time to learn English, to see that Spanish immigrants are getting preferential treatment. I have nothing against Spanish speakers because I have Spanish friends as well.)

I believe that American companies should stop violating human rights by working children to death in sweat shops with meager pay and getting away with it by selling their $90 Yuppie Trash shirt. (I think if we want more people in the workforce we should domesticate more of our products instead of making the double standard of trading with communists.)

I strongly believe that we should've heeded Washington's warning on neutrality and not get muddled in the affairs of everyone else around the world. However, I am also aware that there were times when our lack of neutrality saved us, such as World War II. I also strongly feel that this country isn't what the Founding Fathers really wanted and that we have disappointed them with the way things are being run right now. So does that mean I hate America or whatever? No, of course not. I am just disappointed with how things are turning out though, I do notice sometimes that there is still discrimination wherever I go, just not as bad as say during the 1960s. (Yes I even notice such discriminative undertones in the remarks some people make on this forum, but I understand why at times. However because I believe that education is important I do try to point out that Islam isn't all about jihad, bombs, and AK-47s. I think that as a country America has a lot to do, and it wasn't until AFTER 9/11 that more and more Muslims came out of living a fairly quiet existence in this country.)

Wow, sorry for stealing the spotlight, but overall I try to keep my politics down the middle. I've got more to say, but I think that it'd be best if people just message me if they want a friendly debate or just ask questions.


Epyon

 

[Heist]

Why would you let politics get involved in a friendship?!

I don't believe that my friends "have" to enjoy running around in BDUs buying SKSs at gunshows (heck, I don't either.) any more than my politicians have to have a good track record on guns to the exclusion of all else.