GunsnRovers
New member
All this condemnation and yet NOTHING has been posted telling what happened.
Police trainee accidentally killed by instructor in GA
- Thread starter blackmind
- Start date
- Status
I think we know what happen.
The gun was loaded, pointed at something it wasn't supposed to be and the trigger squeezed but I'll tell you IT CAN HAPPEN TO ANYONE. I recall a poster in our ready room during my service days that said “complacency kills”. That’s applicable here.
The gun was loaded, pointed at something it wasn't supposed to be and the trigger squeezed but I'll tell you IT CAN HAPPEN TO ANYONE. I recall a poster in our ready room during my service days that said “complacency kills”. That’s applicable here.
From http://wsbradio.com/news/091505traineeshot3a.html :
Sounds like he took a live gun into a role-play area.
pax
The man who makes no mistakes does not usually make anything. -- William Connor Magee
Sounds like he took a live gun into a role-play area.
pax
The man who makes no mistakes does not usually make anything. -- William Connor Magee
jburtonpdx said:
:barf: Saying it's not part of the job for an LEO to be more proficient and safe with a weapon is like saying surgeons shouldn't be more proficient with a scalpel and other surgical tools.
Absence of proficiency in either case can lead to accidental death. Inexcusable.
Officers are entrusted with a great deal of power and responsibility. They're held to a higher standard than the rest of the public, and rightly so.
Also, anyone who CCW's should be held to the same standard.
DangerDave: I can't imagine what Tara's parents, other relatives and friends are going through! I don't think it's politicizing this tragedy to make the assumption (even without knowing all the facts) that the instructor screwed up. I understand that the guy's nickname is "Action Jackson", and that he's somewhat of a local legend.
The comparisons of a police trainer's having such an accident with those not so trained are bad analogies. Of course, a trained instructor would be expected to know better! That's why police academies use trained instructors rather than some citizen off the street. I know the instructor is beside himself, too. His life will never be the same, and he also has my sympathy.
The comparisons of a police trainer's having such an accident with those not so trained are bad analogies. Of course, a trained instructor would be expected to know better! That's why police academies use trained instructors rather than some citizen off the street. I know the instructor is beside himself, too. His life will never be the same, and he also has my sympathy.
This is of course a tragedy, and the proper steps should have been taken to ensure that this didn’t happen, but lets get a bit of perspective here. This was training, and law enforcement training often involves the injury and even the occasional death of its trainees. I’m not excusing what happened (actually, I don’t really know what happened, but certainly the four rules weren’t followed), I’m just saying that in the various law enforcement training centers across the nation, death and extreme injury have occurred as a result of training runs, fights, driving, and even the heat. Matter of fact, to the best of my knowledge, more training deaths have occurred from falls during climbing exercises, than shootings.
CarbineCaleb
New member
I also think there is little doubt that *this* instructor screwed up - if you follow the four rules, it's *not possible* to shoot someone.
The only thing that I dispute are comments that seem to generalize from this incident to police on the whole as opposed to civilians on the whole.
The bottom line is, everyone who owns a gun must follow the safety rules at all times. If you don't do that, you are tempting fate.
This trainer will need to live with the memory of the cost of his actions for the rest of his life. That will last well beyond his sentence.
I agree with the quote that "complacency kills"... it's people who don't respect the danger of firearms who are more likely to violate the safety rules. I see violations of the muzzle cover rule and trigger rule *all the time* at the various ranges. As an aside, in mountaineering, that's when most falls occur - not on the difficult pitches when the climber is focused on the danger and on perfect technique, but when the climber is relaxed and not paying much attention.
The only thing that I dispute are comments that seem to generalize from this incident to police on the whole as opposed to civilians on the whole.
The bottom line is, everyone who owns a gun must follow the safety rules at all times. If you don't do that, you are tempting fate.
This trainer will need to live with the memory of the cost of his actions for the rest of his life. That will last well beyond his sentence.
I agree with the quote that "complacency kills"... it's people who don't respect the danger of firearms who are more likely to violate the safety rules. I see violations of the muzzle cover rule and trigger rule *all the time* at the various ranges. As an aside, in mountaineering, that's when most falls occur - not on the difficult pitches when the climber is focused on the danger and on perfect technique, but when the climber is relaxed and not paying much attention.
Here's a little more info from today's Atlanta Journal-Constitution, starting with information from Cobb County's sheriff.
"All ammunition is banned from the building, said Warren, who declined to release the instructor's name or any initial findings as to why he had the pistol. Warren provided no further details of how or why the gun fired.
Further, a state policy bans any working firearm — loaded or not — from academy classrooms, said Bob Sanderson, assistant director of the Georgia Public Safety Training Center in Forsyth. The state oversees the center in Austell and nine other regional police academies.
"In the classroom, they use what is called a red gun, models that are made of red, hard plastic that are replicas of actual handguns," he said
In addition to some tough times mentally, looks to me like "Action" Jackson is in for some legal woes, also.
"All ammunition is banned from the building, said Warren, who declined to release the instructor's name or any initial findings as to why he had the pistol. Warren provided no further details of how or why the gun fired.
Further, a state policy bans any working firearm — loaded or not — from academy classrooms, said Bob Sanderson, assistant director of the Georgia Public Safety Training Center in Forsyth. The state oversees the center in Austell and nine other regional police academies.
"In the classroom, they use what is called a red gun, models that are made of red, hard plastic that are replicas of actual handguns," he said
In addition to some tough times mentally, looks to me like "Action" Jackson is in for some legal woes, also.
Danger Dave
New member
Asking how this happened, to me, is not politicizing a tragic event. That's the basic question we all HAVE to know the answer to, so it never happens to anyone else. And yes, I would feel bad about that and try to respect your feelings. That's just basic human decency.
However it happened, I don't see any way around the idea that the instructor bears responsibility. It was his class. I feel badly for him, too - but we are responsible for all that we do, whatever our intentions.
Keep molonlabe's advice in your head at all times - the split second you believe it will never happen to you, it just might. Some mistakes can't be undone.
BTW, the town she was going to work for (Kennesaw) is famous in RKBA circles for passing an ordinance requiring every household to have a gun.
However it happened, I don't see any way around the idea that the instructor bears responsibility. It was his class. I feel badly for him, too - but we are responsible for all that we do, whatever our intentions.
Keep molonlabe's advice in your head at all times - the split second you believe it will never happen to you, it just might. Some mistakes can't be undone.
BTW, the town she was going to work for (Kennesaw) is famous in RKBA circles for passing an ordinance requiring every household to have a gun.
That this young woman's life was cut short at just 23 years is downright tragic. That apparantly not only the four rules of safety, but policies specifically prohibiting firearms and ammunition in the classrooms were broken makes it just about criminal in my mind. Of course we still don't know why the gun was there and whether the instructor brought it with him or if he took it from a trainee.
Here's some further info from THR that somebody posted from GT:
This is a quote from an Atlanta area cop.
"Our department has a mandate student in that academy class. In fact, this particular trainee was standing right next to the decedent when the tragedy happened.
Though some of the details are sketchy (this is coming second hand information), the mandate students were inside of the gymnasium practicing dry-firing exercises (with their issued weapons, not ASP red guns) from hasty cover and awkward positions. The instructor then proceeded to illustrate one of the drills, assumed a kneeling stance and dry fired into his "target" (and unfortunately, his weapon wasn't dry and the target selection was suboptimal)."
Looks to me like big settlement for family of victim and probably prosecution of instructor.
This is a quote from an Atlanta area cop.
"Our department has a mandate student in that academy class. In fact, this particular trainee was standing right next to the decedent when the tragedy happened.
Though some of the details are sketchy (this is coming second hand information), the mandate students were inside of the gymnasium practicing dry-firing exercises (with their issued weapons, not ASP red guns) from hasty cover and awkward positions. The instructor then proceeded to illustrate one of the drills, assumed a kneeling stance and dry fired into his "target" (and unfortunately, his weapon wasn't dry and the target selection was suboptimal)."
Looks to me like big settlement for family of victim and probably prosecution of instructor.
Marko Kloos
Inactive
That's the biggest understatement I've read all year.
GunsnRovers
New member
If the above account is correct, that certainly fills a lot of the blanks left by the original post.
That's just scary and tragic all the way around.
That's just scary and tragic all the way around.
jburtonpdx
New member
Trip20
My point is that absence of proficiency by anyone handling a firearm is inexcusable. I dont care if you are a police officer, fire fighter, NRA instructor, a kindergarten teacher, or a transient. If you handle a firearm in a way that is inapropriate you should be held responsible for your actions.
As far as police being held to a higher standard, yeah that is part of the reason that the officer is given a commision and the authority to do there job. The point of my post is that using the fire arm is not what the officers job is, the fire arm is a tool to be used in the course of the job.
If somehow you are taking this as LEO bashing, your perception is mistaken. I am stating that the title of the person handling the gun is not relevant to whether or not they should be expected to have a level of proficiency for using a tool that if mishandled can produce dire consequences. In other words, I believe that any reasonable person would know that a firearm is always to be considered potentially loaded and should act accordingly.
This is a curious statement - do you believe that everybody who applies for a CCW should be put through a polygraph, extensive background - beyond just the NCIC stuff but actual face to face interviews with references, psychological examination, physical fitness test, ungodly amount of time studying even the most miniscule portions of the law, training by instructors that some would almost call abuse, etc... The LEOs that I know that endured all that crap, then made it through the probationary period for what I don't consider much of a paycheck since many of them have 4 year degrees, and are quite smart individuals, are up to that higher standard in my mind, I am not up there, don't want to and am not willing (able? sure I will admit that I am not as tough as most of the guys I know that are cops, also have not lived up to the same standards all my life as many of them) to make it through all that crap.
Again - I am not LEO bashing, just saying that everybody has a responsibility when handling any tool as powerful as a firearm.
XavierBreath
New member
I think this one has about been covered. This instructor did so many things wrong one wonders if he did anything right. Even the rules put into place to prevent people who won't follow the 4 Rules from causing injury were violated by this instructor. I would hazard a bet that this was not his first time violating all those rules.
I would also wager that if he were teaching Russian Roulette he would have checked his gun a hell of a lot better or used a red gun. The fact is, he did not care enough to check his chamber beforehand. He did not care enough to follow rules regarding ammunition and firearms in classes. He knew the potential consequences, yet he did not care. The more I think about arrogant know-it-alls like this that I have crossed paths with in my life, who may someday kill an innocent person the madder I get. I don't care about his fragile little psyche. I hope he makes some nice friends in the slammer.
I would also wager that if he were teaching Russian Roulette he would have checked his gun a hell of a lot better or used a red gun. The fact is, he did not care enough to check his chamber beforehand. He did not care enough to follow rules regarding ammunition and firearms in classes. He knew the potential consequences, yet he did not care. The more I think about arrogant know-it-alls like this that I have crossed paths with in my life, who may someday kill an innocent person the madder I get. I don't care about his fragile little psyche. I hope he makes some nice friends in the slammer.
No, what you've detailed is not a standard, it's a regiment.jburtonpdx said:
It is entirely understandable that a guy who twice a year goes to the range and handles firearms, is going to be profoundly less proficient with firearms, and with firearm safety, than someone a LEO.jbertonpdx said:
Since the LEO has this "tool" issued to him and it is now part of his job, he is going to be expected (<--higher standard) to be more proficient with firearms, and firearm safety, than the guy who goes out to the range twice a year.
This is what I mean when I say a person who carries a concealed weapon should be held to the same higher standard (i.e. expected to be more proficient than the guy that goes to the range twice a year).
As a side note, I love how people speak of a sidearm with respect to LEO as just a "tool". As if to imply, and minimize it's importance like it's a rusty ratchet set thrown in the bottom of a mechanics tool chest.
"This is what I mean when I say a person who carries a concealed weapon should be held to the same higher standard (i.e. expected to be more proficient than the guy that goes to the range twice a year)."
I submit that in this sort of situation there is no need to hold *anyone* to a higher standard, since the lowest possible standard (the four rules) is more than adequate to prevent any accident.
Tim
I submit that in this sort of situation there is no need to hold *anyone* to a higher standard, since the lowest possible standard (the four rules) is more than adequate to prevent any accident.
Tim
JuniorCommando
Moderator
That was a 1 shot kill. What kind of bullet was it? Anyone know?
- Status