Police to Check Bags on NYC Subways ... 4th amendment anyone?

BerettaCougar

New member
NEW YORK - Police will begin conducting random searches of packages and backpacks carried by people entering city subways, Mayor Michael Bloomberg announced Thursday after a new series of bomb attacks in London.

Authorities said the system is still being developed, but the plan is for passengers carrying bags to be selected at random before they have passed through turnstiles.

Police Commissioner Raymond Kelly promised that officers would not engage in racial profiling, and that passengers will be free to "turn around and leave" rather than consent to a search.

Officials would not immediately say how frequently the checks would occur. The checks are scheduled to begin at some stations by Thursday evening and will be occurring throughout the system by rush hour on Friday.

"We just live in a world where, sadly, these kinds of security measures are necessary," Bloomberg said. "Are they intrusive? Yes, a little bit. But we are trying to find that right balance."

Searching the bags of more than a token number of straphangers may be impossible.

New York's subways carry about 4.5 million passengers on the average weekday, according to the Metropolitan Transportation Authority.

There are 468 subway stations in the system, most of which have multiple entrances, and during rush hours, the flood of commuters hurrying in and out of key stations can be overwhelming.

Asked whether the searches might create bottlenecks at subway entrances, Kelly suggested the searches would be of a small enough sampling of passengers that only individuals, rather than whole crowds, would be delayed.

"We are going to do it in a reasonable commonsense way," he said.

Similar types of random searches of subway passengers have prompted complaints from civil liberties groups in other cities, and in some cases have been challenged in court.

Christopher Dunn, associate legal director of the New York Civil Liberties Union, said the searches in New York could be problematic, if not conducted properly.

"The department can and should be actively and aggressively investigating anyone they suspect of bringing explosives into the subway, but police searches of people without any individualized suspicion is contrary to our most basic constitutional values," he said.

Authorities said there is also a possibility that checks will be conducted on some bus and train passengers.
 
I don't see a violation. You're free to turn around and leave if you don't want to be searched. Consenting to the search is simply a requirement if you choose to ride the subway, the same as consenting for a search is a requirement for riding on a commercial aircraft. You can always make alternate transportation arrangments and hail a cab.
 
"The choice is not between order and liberty. It is between liberty with order and anarchy without either. There is danger that, if the court does not temper its doctrinaire logic with a little practical wisdom, it will convert the constitutional Bill of Rights into a suicide pact." Justice Robert H. Jackson
 
Subways are public, paid for by tax money...
Airports and taxi's are private.

So if a taxi cab driver wants you to open your bag...youre on/in his property... have to follow his rules or get another cab, the same cant be done with a subway...you cant just get another subway...the problem...infection...violation of rights is city wide.
 
I am definately FOR or rights, and believe in upholding our constitution to its fullest, BUT......I am also FOR public safety and FOR law and order among chaos.

If searching rendom members before boarding a subway is done in the interest of stopping a terrorist, it should be done. So a few people get angry and detained a bit, but hundreds or thousands ride the subway to work alive and uninjured....its a pretty fair tradeoff. They just have to be careful in HOW these searches are conducted.

If you are so against the searches, imagine YOU are now in COMPLETE CHARGE of the SECURITY and SAFETY of the subway passengers. WHAT would YOU DO TO KEEP THEM SAFE? If you've got a better idea, lets have it.

Its really nice to oppose things on principal, and to shout and holler, but if it really bothers you so badly, then lets see your proposal on how to handle the situtation......

My grandpa always said bitchin about something is easy, doin something about it is the hard part.....
 
BerettaCougar

"Airports and taxi's are private"

With respect, I believe you are misinformed. Very, very few (if any) major commercial airports are privately -- or even corporately -- owned. Almost all are funded, owned, and managed under some type of public control.
 
Either way, it is a violation of my rights.

Airplane ride isnt as needed to some as a train ride, and the amount of people that fly are greatly less than those that ride the train.

And even though the airport isnt private, each airline is private.

There is no private train in the subways of NYC.
 
"If searching rendom members before boarding a subway is done in the interest of stopping a terrorist, it should be done."

Careful, Derius. You're only a short nudge away from searches of anyone, anywhere, just as long as it's only to stop terrorists.

Besides, just as in the airports, the searches will *never* catch a terrorist, especially if people are allowed to turn around and walk away before being searched.

Tim
 
I don't like it one bit.

As SpacemanSpiff said, it is nothing more than a feel-good measure to make the public think the government is doing something. In reality is just a waste of public funds, a potential Constitutional violation, and a false sense of security. If you can refuse to consent, does anyone really thing a potential bomber is going to consent and let the police search his backpack full of C4, or do you think he'll say "no thanks" and walk away?

It won't catch one terrorist, but it will inconvenience millions of NYC MTA passengers and contribute to the further erosion of our rights in the name of 'security'.

Consider this analogy; if the USPS & FBI jointly instituted a program whereby your mail could be randomly opened and read to uncover potential terrorist activity? If you didn't like it you're free to use FedEx, UPS, or some other common carrier (most likely at a much greater expense to you).
 
I don't see a violation. You're free to turn around and leave if you don't want to be searched. Consenting to the search is simply a requirement if you choose to ride the subway, the same as consenting for a search is a requirement for riding on a commercial aircraft. You can always make alternate transportation arrangments and hail a cab.


I'm new here, and so I don't know which users typically come out in defense of leftist, intrusive, government-gone-amok types of activities...
but this seems like one such case.

How can you possibly not see a violation here?
So what if you are free to turn around and leave?
They're saying that you can avoid being illegally searched: all you have to do is give up your right to do something you're legally allowed to do!

What if they said that anyone who opens a bank account is now going to be subject to having his house randomly searched? You aren't FORCED to open a bank account, right? But try living a normal life without doing so. It's very difficult. It creates a burden on you. How would you have a credit card, or a home loan, or pay your utility bills?


This is police-statism in its pure form. I read in an article that some spokesman for the NY Civil Liberties Union, instead of coming out railing against this policy, said something like, "It has to be done 'right' "!!!!!! WTF?! A professed Civil Libertarian who doesn't categorically condemn random searches of the public?! :mad:


-Jeffrey
 
I am definately FOR or rights, and believe in upholding our constitution to its fullest, BUT......I am also FOR public safety and FOR law and order among chaos.

If searching rendom members before boarding a subway is done in the interest of stopping a terrorist, it should be done. So a few people get angry and detained a bit, but hundreds or thousands ride the subway to work alive and uninjured....its a pretty fair tradeoff. They just have to be careful in HOW these searches are conducted.


So you don't care to notice that a few random searches haven't a snowball's chance in hell of stopping terrorist subway bombings? You'd rather pretend that this will "do something" to prevent bombings? And you think that the surrender of our 4th amendment rights is worth that trade?

Oh my freakin' god...

IF these searches had a PRAYER of truly standing between the subway-traveling public, and death by bombing, I could see your point. But they won't. They can't. They will be searching less than .01% of subway travelers. There WILL be violation of our Constitutional rights; there WON'T be bomb prevention accomplished.

And you say you're in favor of this...

Sickening.

If you are so against the searches, imagine YOU are now in COMPLETE CHARGE of the SECURITY and SAFETY of the subway passengers. WHAT would YOU DO TO KEEP THEM SAFE? If you've got a better idea, lets have it.


Strawman. Just because we don't have a replacement plan that guarantees we can "keep them safe" (can ANYONE or ANY THING "keep people safe"?!) doesn't mean we can't say what plan IS NOT constitutional, or WILL NOT be effective.

Why is it so common for people to use the logical fallacy that we can't criticise an obviously flawed plan unless we have designed our own perfect one??

So, because we don't have a better plan for "keeping them safe" (which anyone can tell you is not even possible), we have no choice but to support this illegal plan?!

Pish posh.

-blackmind
 
it seems to me like they arent doing this to catch bad guys, but to try and deter them from attacking the subway.

the entire idea is laughable.
 
A grab-your-ass attempt at foiling terrorism at the expense of individual rights. When are Americans going to get their head out of arse and take a real look around.

The fourth amendment provides for protection from unreasonable search and seizure. The key to employment of this concept is PROBABLE CAUSE. If you dont have it, it is an illegal search. This is all based on a presumption of criminal activity. Are we to presume we are involved in some kind of criminal activity because we use public transportation?

What are ya gonna do when The Man comes knocking at your door?
 
I can see it now.... There is going to be an argument between Frank and USP45....

I dont think I want to read this thread when that gets started....

:rolleyes:
 
I'm thinking, now...

We need to figure out a way to know if this program is paying off.

Like, at the end of a month, or six months, LET'S COUNT HOW MANY BOMBS HAVE BEEN FOUND IN THE SEARCHED BAGS!

Isn't that a fair measure of the effectiveness of the program?

If there are no bombs found in that time, we know either:

- there never were any bombs, in which case we don't need the program
- anyone who was bringing bombs has evaded the searches and/or simply fallen through the cracks, in which case the program is demonstrated useless
- the people with the bombs have turned away when asked to be searched, and have been allowed to disappear into the crowd with their bomb to plant it somewhere else, so the program is useless
- the people with the bombs have already decided to bomb other locations, so the program is useless
- the random number of searches is simply far too small a sampling to ever hope to find bombs, so the program is doomed to fail and eventually let bombs, perhaps dozens or even hundreds, slip through -- hence the program is useless


Now, if the "brains" behind this program haven't thought of this stuff but I have, then they are incompetent and should not have ANY power in government -- OR, they are just deliberately going through motions that they KNOW are useless, and wasting everyone's time, money, and rights. In the latter case, they should be prosecuted for malfeasance.



And one final thought: Is it not true of homicide/suicide bombers that often when they are apprehended or otherwise spotted, they attempt to detonate their bombs on-the-spot?

So one possible unintended consequence is that a homicide/suicide bomber who approaches the turnstile will, instead of bombing the subway train, settle for blowing up a few dozen people crowded there at the turnstile?

And our random search policy is a success why?


-Jeffrey
 
In Boston they are trying to use explosive smelling dogs. I find nothing wrong with this, as it does not involve unreasonable search and seizure. When NYC says you have to open your bag, and we can arrest you for any contraban found there, it is unlawful, and a clear violation of the 4th.

Does not matter what you play the justification off as. Just like someone else said. A bomber will simply go elsewhere if they feel they are going to be searched.

And wasn't it our own government that said the goal of terrorism is to disrupt our normal lives, and that we should not give into this.

I can tell you this much without reservation. The ride is about to begin, please keep your arms, and hands inside the ride at all times until comes to a complete stop. (This way we can tie them easier)
 
They're saying that you can avoid being illegally searched: all you have to do is give up your right to do something you're legally allowed to do!

You're not giving up a right, because you have no right to ride the subway, it's use is a priviledge and requires that you conform to the rules pertaining to riding on it.
 
It may not bother you, until you try to board the Boston subway with your everyday items carried in a bag that you may have used previously to take fired guns home from the range.

Then they stop you because the dogs smell the burned powder on your bag. And you get searched, all because it's now "suspicious" (to the dog, and to the law enforcement community) to have a bag that smells like perfectly legal handgun ammunition.

-blackmind
 
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