Police Shoot Handcuffed Man in the Back

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ProficientRifleman said:
Just submit and comply and behave like a good little WOMAN and everything should be fine.

Invective: noun 1)strongly abusive or critical language. 2) abusive or venomous language used to express blame or censure or bitter deep-seated ill will. — ORIGIN Latin invectivus ‘attacking’, from invehere (see INVEIGH).

A day old response, and I missed it. My apologies to Pax for her having to point this out to me.

That said, we will not tolerate this type of behavior. No notice. No second chances. No way. No how.
 
If anything, I think that tasers should be required to look and feel nothing like a common handgun. Mabey it could prevent a few of these terrible accidents.

If the shooting was indeed an accident, then I think the LEO should be tried like any common citizen that accidentally shot a man in the back who was restrained. A badge should not be used as an excuse for poor choices.

Keep in mind, that somtimes innocent people do get arrested, and do get cuffed. Next time it could be somone you know. Having tasers that look and feel like guns seems to me almost as potentially dangerous as leaving real guns lying around with airsoft guns. Sure, most any adult should be able to tell the difference, but is it worth the risk?
 
If anything, I think that tasers should be required to look and feel nothing like a common handgun. Mabey it could prevent a few of these terrible accidents.
I never really thought about it, but this makes more sense than almost anything i have heard this week. Ahough i did spend the last day studying the federal crop insurance program, so maybe I am not saying much.

It seems to me that the group off to the right in the videos was making a lot of trouble. The LEO was not able to distinguish between individuals causing trouble and those not according to all the accounts I have read. I think it is obvious he made a mistake.
A badge should not be used as an excuse for poor choices
Like the smart man said, send him to court where it can be reviewed and all the circumstance considered, including mitigating circumstances.
 
As a resident of the bay area and someone who has used BART many times, I have to say that something went woefully wrong here and we should not indict the entire agency for the acts of a single individual.

There will be no winners in this case.

From the videos I have a hard time...
  • Seeing any threat that would justify lethal force.
  • Seeing a threat that would justify tasing the shooting victim.
  • Believing the officer thought he reached for a taser.
  • thinking the officer couldn't tell his duty weapon from a taser.
  • Believing the officer actually meant to shoot/kill the subject.
At the end of one video the officer steps back after holstering his gun and raises his hands towards his head as if reacting to "Oh crap! What did I do?" At least it appeared so to me.

In the arrest, I could not see sufficient reason for even tasing the man on the ground. He was not entirely cooperative, but I did not see severe resistance that would warrant either taser use or the use of baton strikes to get compliance. Nor could I see any immediate threat that would warrant either tasing or lethal force.

Now...because I couldn't see it on a jerky, somewhat dark cell phone video does not mean a threat or justification did not exist. But I sure can't see one.

I'll give an example. The deceased was apparently talking on his cellphone at the time. His wife claims to have heard the gunshot over the phone. So, if we suppose a Bluetooth headset, it may be that his cellphone was in a pocket (right front or right rear). We can see the potential for error if the subject's right hand is still free and the officer sees a rectangular man-made object protruding from a pocket and the subject's hand appears to be reaching for it. Some cellphones when viewed from the back side, being black or dark "charcoal", may be mistaken for the grip of a firearm. One can then see the error leading to a tragedy.

But many people today carry cell phones of all sizes, shapes and colors. These are not uncommon devices nor unexpected items to find upon a person. At best, it becomes an error in identification and judgement that could render this an involuntary manslaughter case.

Yes, I'm one of those who thinks tasers are over-used and used in inappropriate situations. However, tasering someone who looks to be reaching for a potential weapon is not excessive. But the officer reaches for the wrong side of his body, has to draw from a level-3 holster and does not fire immediately, but a second or so afterwards.

It's too early for people to really riot as they did tonight. The officer still has his rights, including the right to resign and the right to remain silent. We should let the process continue until we see what the D.A. and investigation recommend.

I forsee a minumum charge of 192(b) Involuntary Manslaughter. Punisment for 192(b) is up to 1 year in the county jail or 16 months or 2 or 4 years in state prison.

More likely, the D.A. will start with an initial charge of 2nd degree murder and let the defense argue for involuntary manslaughter. Lacking any evidence that the officer had any intent to kill or seriously injure the deceased, the manslaughter charge is probably correct. By the time the case is tried, if he gets a 3-year sentence with one year credited for "time served" he'll spend a year in prison.

But the rest of his professional life is ruined. It is also likely that his marriage will end in divorce and a civil suit will still tag him with tens of thousands of dollars of debt.

That's why I said there will be no winners in this case.
 
Of course there are, and good cops outnumber the bad ones by the considerable margin.

It's like what my leadership teacher once said: "99 percent of people are good folks, it's the 1 percent that causes 99 percent of the problems."
The problem is, what happens when a "bad cop" screws up? Generaly, the "good cops" close ranks and the "bad cop" gets little if any punishment at all. Not all the time, but generally that is the apparent trend.

I'm not going to start listing examples and going into detail with them as I'm not going to try to respect the "no-cop bashing request"
 
Crosshair, the problem I have with generalized cop bashing, is that it is off topic. It assumes all LEOs are the same. We all know this not to be true.

Now, bash this particular cop, and only this cop and you're on topic. True or not.
 
One doesn't have to look for malacious behavior to explain this and one should remember it is not that unusual.
I completely agree. I do not for one second believe this officer intended to harm the victim.

Of course, most people that kill someone while driving drunk never intended to harm anyone either. That does not mean I do not think they should suffer harsh and lengthy punishment for their actions.

Granted some will say that this officer did not do anything is grossly negligent as drinking then driving, but he still made a grievous personal error that unjustly ended the life of another person. The fact that he made this error, at the very least, proves him unfit for the job he currently holds, IMHO.
 
PBP,

I agree completely. Depending on the charge the officer's intent is completely irrelevant.

However, drawing a weapon, pointing it at someone, and squeezing the trigger would indicate to me intent to cause the death of the other person. Doing those three actions without intent to kill the person would seem pretty negligent to me because the result of those actions is likely to be death.

What boggles my mind about this situation and others like it is the reaction of people. Why do they riot in their own neighborhoods and in the process destroy the place they live. It makes no sense to me.

I could see organizing a protest outside of a meeting, or the police station, or a march through the streets, these can be peaceful and productive ways of exercising constitutional rights. But I just don't understnad how you take your anger at the police out on your own neighborhood.
 
WOW.. How did I miss this?

This happened new years eve and I'm just now finding out about it.

What a terrible situation. I feel for all involved here. It's my feeling that yes it was a terrible mistake on behalf of the officer and that he inadvertantly fired the live round thinking he was going to taze the man.

I do think the officer should be criminaly prosecuted just as anybody else would be.
The victims family should be compensated with ludicris amounts of financial compensation as well. The entire department needs extensive training so that this doesn't happen again. $25 million just doesn't seem enough to me.

I also suspect this isn't the first time somebody got "Shot by a tazer" but we just haven't heard about it.

No winners are coming out of this one... Very sad. My prayers to both families involved and to the officer himself. I do hope he comes through it ok. He must be a nervous wreck.

Roach
 
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BillCA did a good job of predicting the eventual legal outcome of this tragedy. An Involuntary Manslaughter charge seems fair and reasonable to me, at least based on what we see in the video.

I have to say though that this is one of the strangest things I've ever seen. Unholstered his weapon, almost instantly fired, then re-holstered his weapon and threw up his hands as if to say 'did I do that ?'.:confused:

I suppose we will never know what was actually going through his mind when he did it, or as far as that goes he may not even know and/or remember. Glenn E. Meyer's suggestion that it was perhaps stress related may be on the mark.
 
The reason Cops close ranks is because we know that excrement happens and that we are going to be judged and judged harshly by people who have no idea what it means to be a Cop. I am pleased that denizens of the forum are able to convict a man on 30 seconds of cell phone video. I hate nothing more than a corrupt cop, a brutal cop, a hiding behind the badge punk. However I know that the true percentage of bad cops is a lot lower than 1%.

You should not be charged with a crime for making a mistake in good faith at work.

I didn't see one post blaming the true criminal-----The resisting offender. He stops being an ******* ----game over

It is a wonder Cops do anything anymore.

I feel more and more like Col. Jessup everyday.
 
The officer has handed in his resignation rather than be questioned by IA. It does not look good for him. It seems pretty obvious this was a terrible, stupid mistake. I cannot imagine why he drew the weapon, and having drawn it, why he had his finger on the trigger.
I wonder if the tasers have heavy or light triggers. If they are heavy, maybe he thought he was 'pre-loading' some trigger weight on his taser. Horrible event, one for the academy to be sure.
 
The officer has handed in his resignation rather than be questioned by IA. It does not look good for him.
This quote from the DA does not look good for him either.
District Attorney Tom Orloff told CNN on Wednesday the incident is a “pretty clear” homicide and his office will focus primarily on Mehserle’s mental state prior to the shooting.
 
You should not be charged with a crime for making a mistake in good faith at work.

The charge of manslaughter is on the books so that when murder is accidental, there is an appropriate charge. If he's guilty, he has to be charged. If he is convicted, his 'good faith' can then be considered at sentencing.

If I accidentally kill someone while driving a sick person to a hospital, and it's my fault, I can be charged with manslaughter, regardless of the 'good faith' inherent in the activity.

It's a sad day. But closing ranks does little to reassure the public. Transparency will go a long way toward healing the trust of the people.
 
You should not be charged with a crime for making a mistake in good faith at work.

This wasn't a mistake in "good faith" at work.

I didn't see one post blaming the true criminal-----The resisting offender. He stops being an ******* ----game over

Sure, if the criminal stopped it would not have happened. However, the officers actions given how the suspect was acting were not legal. So had the officer done his job within the bounds of the law, this would not have happened.
 
I didn't see one post blaming the true criminal-----The resisting offender. He stops being an ******* ----game over

The actions of a criminal do not justify summary executions, unless the lethal force is in response to a deadly threat.

If a dump truck driver runs a traffic light through inattention, and kills a pedestrian crossing the street, he will still be charged with a homicide, even if the pedestrian was not inside the crosswalk.

Accident? sure
Was pedestrian violating the law? yes
Still chargeable? you bet
 
I think a re-defining of "RESISTANCE" is in order! Handcuffed on your face with a knee on your neck says you ain't able to resist much!
Also, many arresting officers are borderline assaulting suspects and physical response to physical abuse SHOULD be resistance... it is the nature of all but the weakest of species!
Brent
 
The reason Cops close ranks is because we know that excrement happens and that we are going to be judged and judged harshly by people who have no idea what it means to be a Cop. I am pleased that denizens of the forum are able to convict a man on 30 seconds of cell phone video. I hate nothing more than a corrupt cop, a brutal cop, a hiding behind the badge punk. However I know that the true percentage of bad cops is a lot lower than 1%.

You should not be charged with a crime for making a mistake in good faith at work.

I didn't see one post blaming the true criminal-----The resisting offender. He stops being an ******* ----game over

It is a wonder Cops do anything anymore.

I feel more and more like Col. Jessup everyday.

Anybody else noticing anything, here? Interesting, considering one of these two men didn't kill anybody.

Also, you should almost certainly be charged with a crime when making a mistake at work causes somebody to be killed. What crime you should be charged with will vary on circumstances. Whether or not you should be convicted depends on whether a jury believes that you were acting in good faith, whether there was any negligence involved, etc. The punishment should you be convicted would depend on other mitigating circumstances as well.
 
I am pleased that denizens of the forum are able to convict a man on 30 seconds of cell phone video

Most here, including myself, have said that he should be charged with a crime. Whether or not he is convicted is up to a jury. I have said that he is presumed innocent but that doesn't mean he shouldn't be charged.
 
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